Consolidated 991RS thread
02-26-2015, 01:53 PM
#4981
Race Director
02-26-2015, 01:58 PM
#4982
Rennlist Member
and this concept has worked out real well at lowering douchebaggery dealer and owner behavior for Ferrari, remember Kevin Federline drove a Ferrari
02-26-2015, 02:03 PM
#4983
Rennlist Member
I was biased till I bought the 991 GT3. Now I cant tell you which I prefer the most, but there is a place for each in my heart and in my garage.
The problem PAG face right here right now is the competition. The have dropped the 6 speed from the VAG VW R8 and if you are looking closely at the offering from Aston, McLaren and Mercedes all hedging for abit of PAGS GT3 weekend track warrior space you will see that its not looking good for the GT3.
As time and tech moves on this all gets harder. If you incorporate KERS type devise or electric motors to boost torque then your eally need to design and integrate all systems including e-diff and RWS, PTV & active engine mounts etc to make it all work in together as a whole to be greater than the sum of its parts...
In all honesty, doing a 6 speed manual box would ONLY be for nostalgia for PAG. The development costs on a short run, enthusiast acceptable 6 speed box and the work around for e-diff would be high. The published numbers would need the capacity and torque boost to ensure the car did not fall below even the "basic cooking model" GT3 so the record books weren't blotted.
The problem PAG face right here right now is the competition. The have dropped the 6 speed from the VAG VW R8 and if you are looking closely at the offering from Aston, McLaren and Mercedes all hedging for abit of PAGS GT3 weekend track warrior space you will see that its not looking good for the GT3.
As time and tech moves on this all gets harder. If you incorporate KERS type devise or electric motors to boost torque then your eally need to design and integrate all systems including e-diff and RWS, PTV & active engine mounts etc to make it all work in together as a whole to be greater than the sum of its parts...
In all honesty, doing a 6 speed manual box would ONLY be for nostalgia for PAG. The development costs on a short run, enthusiast acceptable 6 speed box and the work around for e-diff would be high. The published numbers would need the capacity and torque boost to ensure the car did not fall below even the "basic cooking model" GT3 so the record books weren't blotted.
02-26-2015, 02:06 PM
#4984
Still contend that not offering a manual option on the GT3 was a mistake. Not from a financial or pure lap time standpoint - I get that - but from pretty much every other aspect. I think enough people feel the same internally and we've heard enough whispering that I'm still hopeful for a "special emotion series" or whateve the spin doctors dream up.
The key issue is mating the right manual and making the numbers work, because for Porsche the numbers always have to work. Pretty clear that most wouldn't be happy with the 9A1-based 7MT on a GT3 in current spec. Of course they're Porsche so we know they can if they want. Tick tock.
But then again, I'm a little biased.....
The key issue is mating the right manual and making the numbers work, because for Porsche the numbers always have to work. Pretty clear that most wouldn't be happy with the 9A1-based 7MT on a GT3 in current spec. Of course they're Porsche so we know they can if they want. Tick tock.
But then again, I'm a little biased.....
02-26-2015, 02:06 PM
#4985
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I was biased till I bought the 991 GT3. Now I cant tell you which I prefer the most, but there is a place for each in my heart and in my garage.
The problem PAG face right here right now is the competition. The have dropped the 6 speed from the VAG VW R8 and if you are looking closely at the offering from Aston, McLaren and Mercedes all hedging for abit of PAGS GT3 weekend track warrior space you will see that its not looking good for the GT3.
As time and tech moves on this all gets harder. If you incorporate KERS type devise or electric motors to boost torque then your eally need to design and integrate all systems including e-diff and RWS, PTV & active engine mounts etc to make it all work in together as a whole to be greater than the sum of its parts...
In all honesty, doing a 6 speed manual box would ONLY be for nostalgia for PAG. The development costs on a short run, enthusiast acceptable 6 speed box and the work around for e-diff would be high. The published numbers would need the capacity and torque boost to ensure the car did not fall below even the "basic cooking model" GT3 so the record books weren't blotted.
The problem PAG face right here right now is the competition. The have dropped the 6 speed from the VAG VW R8 and if you are looking closely at the offering from Aston, McLaren and Mercedes all hedging for abit of PAGS GT3 weekend track warrior space you will see that its not looking good for the GT3.
As time and tech moves on this all gets harder. If you incorporate KERS type devise or electric motors to boost torque then your eally need to design and integrate all systems including e-diff and RWS, PTV & active engine mounts etc to make it all work in together as a whole to be greater than the sum of its parts...
In all honesty, doing a 6 speed manual box would ONLY be for nostalgia for PAG. The development costs on a short run, enthusiast acceptable 6 speed box and the work around for e-diff would be high. The published numbers would need the capacity and torque boost to ensure the car did not fall below even the "basic cooking model" GT3 so the record books weren't blotted.
I totally agree with you regarding the competition, financial costs, and the technological issues with trying to mate a 7MT into a GT car for Porsche (or any other manufacturer), but just thinking out loud here, I'm wondering how GM continues to do with the C7 (either base or in Z06 guise) or the Camaro Z/28.
02-26-2015, 02:09 PM
#4986
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I can't blame PAG for needing the PDK-s in positioning the GT3. AP did say they are under pressure. I suspect PAG also knew that most would have opted for a manual over the PDK if offered. The development costs are not unbearable, these guys have more money than most countries and could easily fund the development by selling 1 a "Surgeon's Special" Panamera triple superman S.
Granted any poll, be in on Rennlist or CNN, will have inherent flaws and biases, but it is one data point to consider.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...ought-one.html
02-26-2015, 02:24 PM
#4987
I don't believe that is accurate, especially if you look at the poll that Mike in CA put up.
Granted any poll, be in on Rennlist or CNN, will have inherent flaws and biases, but it is one data point to consider.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...ought-one.html
Granted any poll, be in on Rennlist or CNN, will have inherent flaws and biases, but it is one data point to consider.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...ought-one.html
02-26-2015, 02:40 PM
#4988
02-26-2015, 02:44 PM
#4989
Rennlist Member
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I think the poll was pretty reflective of what we'd likely see in terms of take-up rate: roughly 1/3, 2/3.
In terms of competition, I think the days of using the 911, even at the GT3 level, to compete with the offerings from McLaren, Ferrari, Lambo, and Aston have pretty much moved on. The GT3 had already carved out a pretty successful third way if you will, focused more on the driving experience than on trying to match HP #'s, CF content, engine layout etc. If Porsche want to play that game it's time for the 960.
But that leaves open a lot of questions: what to do with the motorsport connection; what happens with the GT3 nameplate if you start running a different motorsport platform in the class, can you really support 22 911 variants and which ones if any get cut, etc., etc? Challenging questions that are likely driving some tough LT planning choices.
As for PDK-S, I have plenty of time using it and it's the best DCT out there at the moment no question. That doesn't change any of my previous comments regarding a manual option.
Interesting times.
In terms of competition, I think the days of using the 911, even at the GT3 level, to compete with the offerings from McLaren, Ferrari, Lambo, and Aston have pretty much moved on. The GT3 had already carved out a pretty successful third way if you will, focused more on the driving experience than on trying to match HP #'s, CF content, engine layout etc. If Porsche want to play that game it's time for the 960.
But that leaves open a lot of questions: what to do with the motorsport connection; what happens with the GT3 nameplate if you start running a different motorsport platform in the class, can you really support 22 911 variants and which ones if any get cut, etc., etc? Challenging questions that are likely driving some tough LT planning choices.
As for PDK-S, I have plenty of time using it and it's the best DCT out there at the moment no question. That doesn't change any of my previous comments regarding a manual option.
Interesting times.
02-26-2015, 02:47 PM
#4990
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
My guess is that if Porsche offered a transmission choice the majority would choose pdk (say 70/30), but that's just a guess and not an assertion.
02-26-2015, 02:57 PM
#4992
I believe it is selfish and mean spirited if you want Porsche to limit the supply of certain models, It is my hope that all of us who want one can get one, I don't care about collectibility and future values. This is a toy for all of us to play with and enjoy. To me we are Porsche People and love cars to drive and for what they are and not art objects like Ferrari people (no offense to the cool Ferrari people)
As the saying goes...you can't take these cars with you (when you are 6 feet under) so enjoy the hell out of them. 
02-26-2015, 02:59 PM
#4993
One could just as easily theorize that pricing spiked because it's a low volume model with tight supply. You have not provided any evidence that proves this was because it was pdk only. The idea that Porsche offers a one choice transmission option that somehow increased demand is a highly counterintuitive argument.
My guess is that if Porsche offered a transmission choice the majority would choose pdk (say 70/30), but that's just a guess and not an assertion.
My guess is that if Porsche offered a transmission choice the majority would choose pdk (say 70/30), but that's just a guess and not an assertion.
Prices were going down and spiked after the announcement of PDK only. Every GT3 forum went crazy, including this one.
If you think that the prices jump is coincidental when the PDK only was announced than so be it.
If low volume cars were dropping in price but suddenly jumped up in price, then demand must have played a role. But why a new demand?
I don't need to reference every sale to show when the prices jumped. But check out the 997 forum. 991 GT3s are starting to trade at 997 GT3 prices. Coincidence?
02-26-2015, 03:06 PM
#4994
The increased demand is from non traditional customers. To an extent that some here have show a distaste for that fact.
Prices were going down and spiked after the announcement of PDK only. Every GT3 forum went crazy, including this one.
If you think that the prices jump is coincidental when the PDK only was announced than so be it.
If low volume cars were dropping in price but suddenly jumped up in price, then demand must have played a role. But why a new demand?
I don't need to reference every sale to show when the prices jumped. But check out the 997 forum. 991 GT3s are starting to trade at 997 GT3 prices. Coincidence?
Prices were going down and spiked after the announcement of PDK only. Every GT3 forum went crazy, including this one.
If you think that the prices jump is coincidental when the PDK only was announced than so be it.
If low volume cars were dropping in price but suddenly jumped up in price, then demand must have played a role. But why a new demand?
I don't need to reference every sale to show when the prices jumped. But check out the 997 forum. 991 GT3s are starting to trade at 997 GT3 prices. Coincidence?
02-26-2015, 03:07 PM
#4995
Rennlist Member
Nizer. I agree with what you say mostly.
Two things.
Firstly, lets give PAG credit where's its due.
Contrary to your POV, My POV PAG are going an insanely brilliant job of "punching above their weight" with this new Gen GT3. In days of old there was always a cooking model Feza faster than an GT3, or an Aston or Lambo that could "top trump" it. Not today. You need a 458 Speciale to do that and we havent even seen the GT3RS yet!
However I conceed the days of PAG puling off this type of coup with a N/A engine are almost gone. The FeFi will be needed in 2017/18 to keep the Top Trumps players winning!
Firstly I grew up loving Porsches before the "GT3" badge was coined. Im 44, but the GT3 badge came along when I was in a 993RS and it seemed like a bit of a "new kid on the block thing" back in 2000. Of course now its all we talk/think and dream about LOL!
I predict the GT3 name is on its way out. After almost 2 generations that would seem fair. By 2020 I believe we will have a road racer based on 960/88 architecture which will already be seeing competition. The Gt4 name may survive a few more years but the Gt3 orad cars will be gone and we will be in a new roller coaster..
Two things.
Firstly, lets give PAG credit where's its due.
Contrary to your POV, My POV PAG are going an insanely brilliant job of "punching above their weight" with this new Gen GT3. In days of old there was always a cooking model Feza faster than an GT3, or an Aston or Lambo that could "top trump" it. Not today. You need a 458 Speciale to do that and we havent even seen the GT3RS yet!
However I conceed the days of PAG puling off this type of coup with a N/A engine are almost gone. The FeFi will be needed in 2017/18 to keep the Top Trumps players winning!
Firstly I grew up loving Porsches before the "GT3" badge was coined. Im 44, but the GT3 badge came along when I was in a 993RS and it seemed like a bit of a "new kid on the block thing" back in 2000. Of course now its all we talk/think and dream about LOL!
I predict the GT3 name is on its way out. After almost 2 generations that would seem fair. By 2020 I believe we will have a road racer based on 960/88 architecture which will already be seeing competition. The Gt4 name may survive a few more years but the Gt3 orad cars will be gone and we will be in a new roller coaster..