John McM

So still driving the GT3 in 2018? That makes the 993's future ???

Macca

Graeme. This from Matt Close:

"There were 5 or 6 GTR's in the rally entered in a different class, but none of them (nor any other car) posted faster times than us (and the Viper) on any stage we were "giving it to". The last day and a half was a "dead rubber" for us, once the Viper blew up, so we stopped pushing hard to ensure the win.
The rally was predominantly dry over the 6 days, so the AWD didn't really prove an advantage in the dry. In the wet maybe the story would be different.
While the Turbo S may be quicker in a straight line and in the wet, I don't believe it would be as fast through the twisties as the GT3. Also, it's not a Motorsport car and the DSC, ESP, TC would be saying "no" too often.
Our top speeds in this rally were over 275km/hr... I'm not sure I want to see what a Turbo S does on the same straights..."

Is the Targa NZ speed limited in the competition categories? 275kmph would be mighty thrilling/scary on NZ B roads, Tassie roads look pretty similar...

Macca

....

Gaark

I adore this car


https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...14&oe=5773958D

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...80e1dd8b378442

gt38088

275 needs a pretty straight and flat road......scary no doubt about that.

Macca

is there a "speedfence" for Targa competitors in NZ Graeme?

PHG

Is there a name for the Facebook group, or do I have to 'friend' someone..
I cant locate it in groups

gt38088

yes Motorsport NZ rule is 200k. In the South Island where the roads were straighter in 2014 is was a bit of a problem but in the NI I don't think it so much of an issue.

gt38088

Get hold of either John or Pete

Macca

200k seems a bit light Graeme. We ran that speed on the occasional straight in Targa Tour 2012. Looks like Aussie have open speeds. I wonder if the new speed fence is part of the reason we aren't seeing as much serious contention from Australia these days. mSNZ have taken some of the sizzle out of it?

996tnz

Wow - great driving from Matt, and Targa Tasmania has earned a spot on my bucket list. I had thought that they were more restrictive over there than Targa NZ, not less. 275+ is honking. I suspect the shorter Tassie straights would probably not let even a 991 Turbo S near its top speed (I am reliably informed that it takes almost 3kms of road for my old girl to see 320) but at least there you can fully drive the road rather than also driving the damn speedo.

Of course, to finish first, or 17th for that matter, first you have to finish (and live through the event) so my discretion might still get the better of valour on poor surfaces, as roads start to look more like bicycle lanes at those speeds.

While I'm with Macca in considering the taking of linked corners to be the best challenge of a Targa stage, on the NZ Targa Tour the 160 limit still hammered the flow. It did that by forcing us to concentrate on buttoning off a few seconds after many of the corners to commute along the straights. I think the best answer over here is to compete in a slower category where the 200k competition limit is less intrusive?

BTW, I would hope that the 991 Turbo's stability control and ABS can still be fully disabled somewhere in the loom. Or is its active aero and 4WS too closely integrated with those systems for there to be any gain, as they would also be lost? There are fairly tight circuits where the 991 Turbo (S maybe, but I think it was the base one though) has set quicker lap times than the GT3, so it obviously doesn't embarass itself much more in the corners than it makes up on the straights. As the laps mount up, the GT3 has the endurance advantage, especially on tighter circuits where the Turbo's extra weight increasingly works against it over time by heat soaking the stock brakes and intercoolers, but that shouldn't be much of an issue on most Targa stages?

Fighting withdrawal symptoms at the moment actually - wished the kids a good day this morning and my youngest asked if I was going racing. When I answered no, he asked if I was going to go tomorrow and added "you haven't been racing for ages". I missed the recent Taupo round so it's almost been two months now. After getting six days in over January and February, it's felt a bit feast to famine.

Macca

Walt I understand the feast to famine. After 10 track days in the first 12 weeks of the year on 6 different tracks, two different cars and a mixture of events (Playdays, RSG, Festival) my current state of play seems positively barren. I find myself disengaging the TC on the truck at 80kmph over heavily drenched and potholed dirt roads just to get some adrenalin flowing when heading down the road for the days paper!

I know a couple of the guys who completed this years Targa Tassie in the top 10 and have spoken to them offline. Whilst they are very keen to venture down to NZ for our Targa NZ in the future, none of them were aware of the more recent "speedfence" and the general feedback was disappointment at the 200kmph limit. The fact there is any limit adds another dimension to the competitive event and the possibility of disqualification. Given our roads are at least as quick as Tasmania only further dilutes the experience. MSNZ has somewhat muzzled the event for both tour and competition IMO, especially for those offshore looking to invest in coming over with quick machinery. Im all in for saftey and believe there actually should be a speed ceiling of sorts to keep the event from becoming extinct to quickly...but if we feel 160kmph is restrictive (and I do share your views here) then 200kmph for the main entrants must seem stifling at times, especially on those quick squirts between corners on straights that are well paved.

With regard to the 991 Turbo and the track you are mostly correct. A 991S (not the base model) on MPSS driven well will keep the 991 GT3 honest for a few laps. Infact there have been a couple of motoring track tests using skilled drivers swapping between the cars that have actually beaten their 991 GT3 (on MPSC2) times by a few tenths. However the 991S will start to wilt pretty quickly, maybe 5-6 laps in. Weight is the enemy when it comes to the OEM brakes and tyres on these cars. With MPSC2 tyres and upgraded pads Im sure they would be consistently quicker driven by a experienced racer. Out of the box a phenomenal car, but you are paying $130K NZD more for a un optioned 991S than the same 991 GT3 at retail. The reference to the drivers aids with the 991 GT3 was that they are very generous before they kick in vs the 991S where they kick in sooner and restrict the car more when really pushing in. I suspect again weight, heat, 4WD etc to be part of the cause here plus the script which is GT road car not weekend track sled. For Targa however a 991S with the right tyres, pads and fluid, a committed driver and say 80kg weight reduction by biffing the rear seats and carpet and using race seats would make almost the perfect all weather weapon. But then theres the $406K + option price tag again....

The thing that impressed me most about the Taraga Tassie results this year is that in most cases the top 7 cars were pretty much showroom stock other than perhaps pads, tyres, fluids and some lighter seats. The winning GT3 was even on the MPSC2 tyres which are a road tyre more than an R comp IMO. A few scary moments tho. This is Matts closes tyre after a hard stage where he possibly clipped the inside of the tyre wall!!

gt38088

IMO 275 is too fast for a targa stage. there are a lot of variables that aren't controllable, a small cut in a tyre will see a delamination really quick at those speeds and the pic of Matts tyre is very scary.

You only need to think of the Evans crash while going for the NZ speed record and that was under controlled conditions

996tnz

Hence the discretion versus valour consideration. While speed itself doesn't kill, inappropriate speed can, particularly when the unexpected happens. But on Targa I just see it as a question of exercising the same risk/return judgement as on the rest of the course.

No amount of speed restrictions will take the onus away from the driver's judgement entirely. And yes, even the best can misjudge things. I don't know how many here are aware of these details already, but one of the true masters - Peter Brock - died on the equivalent of a Targa tour (limited to a 130 max average stage speed) over in Australia. He lost the car sideways into a tree while going around a tight left-hander, on one of the slowest corners on the Tour. At least one observer reckoned he went into it 15-20kph faster than the preceding cars but he still wasn't doing nearly 100.

Apparently the corner was rather bumpy and possibly also slick from drizzle but it still feels wrong even now that a guy who drove a Porsche 956 down the full Mulsanne straight at 400 odd kph lap after lap at Le Mans back in '84 should die in a loss of control accident at well under even the legal limit for that particular Targa West road.

In memoriam:

Macca

I dont disagree Graeme. There has to be a "happy medium".