Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
05-10-2013, 01:53 AM
#2656
Rennlist Member
I think the issue with the Aussie economy is that its coming off the boil a bit. The currency has also noticeably weakened over the last few months. It used to be easy to export a car from NZ to Australia but Im not sure now with changes to compliance rules etc.
The challenge with the UK market is VAT and shipping/insurance. With the currency the way it is now a 150k nzd Red 964T with 10k km will cost over 100k GBP landed and complied in the UK. You can still find a low mileage UK new one in the UK for 90k and UK new provenance (like anywhere) will hold sway over an import.
It depends on your personality too. They seem like good investments on face value but in reality they are still a hobby.
Take Johns 964T as an example (hope you don't mind John!). 12 years ago lets say he paid 105K for it. Today lets say he advertises if for 120k and gets 115K. All hypothetical. He makes 10k for a car hes enjoyed 12 years. Over that time lets say its cost him $1100 a year for insurance and Rego, $800 for service and maintenance, and $500 a year for tyres/sundries/repairs etc etc. So its cost him lets say $25,000 over 12 years to be conservative because hes only used it occasionally (20,000 km over that time?). So he makes 10k on resale but over 12 years the ownership experience has cost him in total $15k. Good investment. Hell yes! for a hobby that's a very cheap 12 years investment and if he had have paid 70K for a good 964 he was also considering at that time he would have lost $35,000 on depreciation and had similar insurance and running costs.
Is it a good investment overall. No. If John had have bought an Auckland property 12 years ago his annual return would likely have been much higher. Same if he had have bought gold or any blue chipped equities.
You cant put a value on the enjoyment factor. Its intrinsic. Even a 3.6 964T is poor "investment". Its a reasonably savvy car investment but a poor investment overall.
Part of the problem starts to emerge around now. Johns not rich and hes not poor. Hes made a good car investment and had 12 years of dreaming about driving that car as hes been working overseas and enjoying the heck out of it when hes been back. Thing is its now considered "collectable". Its also hairy to drive in the wet or on the track. It changes your perception of the car when the market starts to view clean, lowish mileage and original cars the most value able and you start to think about it more when someone says lets go for a quick drive with a bunch of Targa guys this wet Sunday. You might take the 964 or 996T instead!
I understand John's position as Ive been there myself. There comes a point where a car becomes somewhat of a responsibility and it doesnt get the use it deserves. There are plenty of very wealthy guys out there that can justify buying a collection of cars like that and barely ever taking them out except for shows. Bravo on them. Ill happily pay the ticket price to go and see their shiny car at a show.
I think for the majority of us on this board we arent wealthy and we like to drive our cars. After-all that what they were built for and we wouldn't be having all this banter about track days if we were show and shine or coffee club guys.
John if you are going to sell that car I would say between now and mid 2014 would be the time to do it to get best optimum return. I suspect the NZ share-market and Auckland property prices will make many feel "wealthy" and gradually loosen up some wallets. Global equities rally's may also increase interest while cash is cheap. The GBP may even pick up 5-20% in value.
If you want a great 964 turbo investment take 60% of the proceeds and buy a 3.3T. This is a very underrated (value wise) car and with a factory power upgrade (such as Jasons and the one on TM right now) it makes about the same power as the 3.6 and looks (bar the wheels) identical. A sound purchase. If you decide you want a 3.6 again in 5 years time your property appreciation will pay for another even if they are 150k by then (relatively not so much of a gain).
If you are the kind of person like many on here that loves to play with their cars and get maximum driving enjoyment from them then your 964 C4 will provide so many more thrills than you will get out of the turbo in the next few years. From a Porsche "envy" point of view or pub rights then the 964T like any of the RS models is a great model to hold.
Not sure how this monologue became focused so much on John and his 964T but hopefully hes found another opinion of interest as I know selling it has been something that hes thought of recently.
If I lived in NZ Id keep my 993 but be cascading through the other options as a daily driver as I did when I lived there. 993RS, GT3, 968CS, M5, RS2 (all these over a period of 7 years as a second car - "made" money on all of them barr the M5) they are all great machines and the time to own them is whilst you can drive and enjoy them without the worry of biffing them or the fact that modifying them could ruin their value. If I were living in NZ now Id be cycling through 996TT, 997 GT3, BMW 1M over the next few years and really loving driving the ***** off all of them. Id keeep the 993 tho as I have too much emotional energy invested in that car. One day it will become too "irreplaceable" to treat how I do now but hopefully that's a long way away.....
Paul. If you want to scratch that itch buy a 3.3T. Put some split rim speedline copies on it for 4K and enjoy it while it appreciates. 60k after haggling should get you an honest one. It will probably double in value over the next 10 years and then you may be faced with the same delimma as above. You may still get more fun out of your 3.0C however....
Monologue completed!
The challenge with the UK market is VAT and shipping/insurance. With the currency the way it is now a 150k nzd Red 964T with 10k km will cost over 100k GBP landed and complied in the UK. You can still find a low mileage UK new one in the UK for 90k and UK new provenance (like anywhere) will hold sway over an import.
It depends on your personality too. They seem like good investments on face value but in reality they are still a hobby.
Take Johns 964T as an example (hope you don't mind John!). 12 years ago lets say he paid 105K for it. Today lets say he advertises if for 120k and gets 115K. All hypothetical. He makes 10k for a car hes enjoyed 12 years. Over that time lets say its cost him $1100 a year for insurance and Rego, $800 for service and maintenance, and $500 a year for tyres/sundries/repairs etc etc. So its cost him lets say $25,000 over 12 years to be conservative because hes only used it occasionally (20,000 km over that time?). So he makes 10k on resale but over 12 years the ownership experience has cost him in total $15k. Good investment. Hell yes! for a hobby that's a very cheap 12 years investment and if he had have paid 70K for a good 964 he was also considering at that time he would have lost $35,000 on depreciation and had similar insurance and running costs.
Is it a good investment overall. No. If John had have bought an Auckland property 12 years ago his annual return would likely have been much higher. Same if he had have bought gold or any blue chipped equities.
You cant put a value on the enjoyment factor. Its intrinsic. Even a 3.6 964T is poor "investment". Its a reasonably savvy car investment but a poor investment overall.
Part of the problem starts to emerge around now. Johns not rich and hes not poor. Hes made a good car investment and had 12 years of dreaming about driving that car as hes been working overseas and enjoying the heck out of it when hes been back. Thing is its now considered "collectable". Its also hairy to drive in the wet or on the track. It changes your perception of the car when the market starts to view clean, lowish mileage and original cars the most value able and you start to think about it more when someone says lets go for a quick drive with a bunch of Targa guys this wet Sunday. You might take the 964 or 996T instead!
I understand John's position as Ive been there myself. There comes a point where a car becomes somewhat of a responsibility and it doesnt get the use it deserves. There are plenty of very wealthy guys out there that can justify buying a collection of cars like that and barely ever taking them out except for shows. Bravo on them. Ill happily pay the ticket price to go and see their shiny car at a show.
I think for the majority of us on this board we arent wealthy and we like to drive our cars. After-all that what they were built for and we wouldn't be having all this banter about track days if we were show and shine or coffee club guys.
John if you are going to sell that car I would say between now and mid 2014 would be the time to do it to get best optimum return. I suspect the NZ share-market and Auckland property prices will make many feel "wealthy" and gradually loosen up some wallets. Global equities rally's may also increase interest while cash is cheap. The GBP may even pick up 5-20% in value.
If you want a great 964 turbo investment take 60% of the proceeds and buy a 3.3T. This is a very underrated (value wise) car and with a factory power upgrade (such as Jasons and the one on TM right now) it makes about the same power as the 3.6 and looks (bar the wheels) identical. A sound purchase. If you decide you want a 3.6 again in 5 years time your property appreciation will pay for another even if they are 150k by then (relatively not so much of a gain).
If you are the kind of person like many on here that loves to play with their cars and get maximum driving enjoyment from them then your 964 C4 will provide so many more thrills than you will get out of the turbo in the next few years. From a Porsche "envy" point of view or pub rights then the 964T like any of the RS models is a great model to hold.
Not sure how this monologue became focused so much on John and his 964T but hopefully hes found another opinion of interest as I know selling it has been something that hes thought of recently.
If I lived in NZ Id keep my 993 but be cascading through the other options as a daily driver as I did when I lived there. 993RS, GT3, 968CS, M5, RS2 (all these over a period of 7 years as a second car - "made" money on all of them barr the M5) they are all great machines and the time to own them is whilst you can drive and enjoy them without the worry of biffing them or the fact that modifying them could ruin their value. If I were living in NZ now Id be cycling through 996TT, 997 GT3, BMW 1M over the next few years and really loving driving the ***** off all of them. Id keeep the 993 tho as I have too much emotional energy invested in that car. One day it will become too "irreplaceable" to treat how I do now but hopefully that's a long way away.....
Paul. If you want to scratch that itch buy a 3.3T. Put some split rim speedline copies on it for 4K and enjoy it while it appreciates. 60k after haggling should get you an honest one. It will probably double in value over the next 10 years and then you may be faced with the same delimma as above. You may still get more fun out of your 3.0C however....
Monologue completed!
05-10-2013, 02:12 AM
#2657
Rennlist Member
Back in 2005 I was wondering whether the Turbo 3.6 made sense to keep since I was going back offshore. I had a chat to a fellow owner, Masa, who said his car was a head clearer when business was difficult and he said don't sell. In 12 years my car has been stored for 7, 6 of those paid, so add that to the costs. I also went through a tart up list when I bought it. All new rear indicators, soft wheel refurb, new front discs, clutch slave cylinder, new mats, tyre pump, fog light. It adds up. Could have done worse though, a 964 C4 was $65,000 at the time. I would have done more in depreciation on that than the Turbo 3.6. 30,000 km of largely trouble free motoring. I still kept my other money working. Don't regret a thing.
05-10-2013, 05:59 AM
#2659
Rennlist Member
Macca, I think you've hit the nail on the head. There comes a time when from a driving point of view a pristine low mileage collectable becomes a liability rather than an asset. The bond we build with cars is based on the expereinces we've enjoyed in them. I find this with my Ur Quattro 20 valve - its relatively low mileage (70,000 km/ 43,000 miles) has become a liability. Hence why buying a 135,000 mile 944 turbo which probably needed a mechanical refresh (perhaps not for the road but definitely for the track) & the consequent "while you're in there you may as well mod the hell out of it" has been liberating even though it makes no financial sense whatsoever. I want to be able to capture pictures of my beast all travel stained after a trip to the 'Ring or Spa or video footage of chasing some GT3's through Fuchsrohre or Eau Rouge - such is the stuff of great driving memories and the joys of car ownership!
I think enthusiast car ownership for anyone who's not extremely affluent needs to be treated as a hobby which will cost you money but some of those costs can sometimes be reduced through limited depreciation or in the best case scenario some modest appreciation. By the same token I don't think it's worth an enthusiastic driver targetting models which they believe will appreciate strongly in the short/mid-term if it results in a fear of driving the machine as its designer intended because of a concern that the aging mechanicals might go into meltdown (something which perhaps makes a '70's Lambo such as a Jarama/Espada a liability rather than an investment in enjoyment).
It's the sheer jack-of-all-trades useability of Porsches which makes them so attractive. They're tough, they're an engineer's car not a playboy's trinket. They're a race it on Sunday & drive it to work Monday sort of vehicle. They appeal to someone who doesn't want to be owned by "things" but perhaps have live a more stripped-back "minimalist" existence. Have a 911 & an SUV and you're probably sorted.
There comes a point where "things" start to own you rather an the inverse & that's when from the enjoyment stand point these things become a liability rather than an asset.
Few of us have both time & money - it's generally one or the other - and it you are fortunate enough to have both & to enjoy a large and full toy box then I also hope that you have enough good friends with whom to share the enjoyment as it's not a lot of fun playing alone!
Tim
I think enthusiast car ownership for anyone who's not extremely affluent needs to be treated as a hobby which will cost you money but some of those costs can sometimes be reduced through limited depreciation or in the best case scenario some modest appreciation. By the same token I don't think it's worth an enthusiastic driver targetting models which they believe will appreciate strongly in the short/mid-term if it results in a fear of driving the machine as its designer intended because of a concern that the aging mechanicals might go into meltdown (something which perhaps makes a '70's Lambo such as a Jarama/Espada a liability rather than an investment in enjoyment).
It's the sheer jack-of-all-trades useability of Porsches which makes them so attractive. They're tough, they're an engineer's car not a playboy's trinket. They're a race it on Sunday & drive it to work Monday sort of vehicle. They appeal to someone who doesn't want to be owned by "things" but perhaps have live a more stripped-back "minimalist" existence. Have a 911 & an SUV and you're probably sorted.
There comes a point where "things" start to own you rather an the inverse & that's when from the enjoyment stand point these things become a liability rather than an asset.
Few of us have both time & money - it's generally one or the other - and it you are fortunate enough to have both & to enjoy a large and full toy box then I also hope that you have enough good friends with whom to share the enjoyment as it's not a lot of fun playing alone!
Tim
05-10-2013, 08:40 AM
#2660
Rennlist Member
Tim. Well said. We are singing from the same hymn sheet. Its a philosophical debate as much as its anything else and I agree with the risk one takes with assets owning then rather than the other way around....
05-10-2013, 04:53 PM
#2661
Drifting
It is very much louder than the Turbo 3.6 
I get a text from Scott each time I go past his house so it's not for shrinking violets.
Not sure of the exact RPM but its around that. The idle adaptation took about 15 seconds and has definitely stabilised the idle. It no longer dips when I depress the clutch coming up to the lights. It never stalled on me, but it was annoying.
I get a text from Scott each time I go past his house so it's not for shrinking violets. Not sure of the exact RPM but its around that. The idle adaptation took about 15 seconds and has definitely stabilised the idle. It no longer dips when I depress the clutch coming up to the lights. It never stalled on me, but it was annoying.
05-10-2013, 05:08 PM
#2662
Rennlist Member
Dave, not sure how long it lasts but the adaptation process is quick so easy to try. It also spits out any faults on the system. You need the cables and software loaded on a laptop. I have both, however the window of opportunity is small. Off again offshore tomorrow afternoon for work.
05-10-2013, 05:52 PM
#2663
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Dave, I am fairly sure Motorscience did another idle adaptation (not sure why, it didn't need it) when they did the yearly service. I hadn't driven it a lot between then and you taking it off my hands, but I had felt like the old RPM-drop-off behaviour had returned slightly. It might be worth taking it back to them to get the adaptation redone on the off chance it picked up a bad adaptation last time.
05-10-2013, 06:25 PM
#2664
Rennlist Member
The adaptation process is preset I.e.. You just do it, there are no parameters to enter. You are supposed to give ithe car a good drive first to get everything at operating temp.
05-10-2013, 09:22 PM
#2665
Rennlist Member
Been to See Shane at Chicane. Racetech 4009W without the head wings looks like the seat for me. With seat squab removed you can see harness holes above my shoulder.
05-10-2013, 09:28 PM
#2668
Rennlist Member
Also got measured up for a Clubman two layer suit. Plenty of room to add embroidery. Macca, have you got a higher res version of what you sent? It's $50 to set the logo up on their machine. A full back embroidered logo would be ~ $30.
05-10-2013, 10:10 PM
#2670
Drifting
Dave, not sure how long it lasts but the adaptation process is quick so easy to try. It also spits out any faults on the system. You need the cables and software loaded on a laptop. I have both, however the window of opportunity is small. Off again offshore tomorrow afternoon for work.