Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
10-30-2014, 10:41 PM
Rennlist Member
Try this Jake http://www.total911.com/opinion-is-t...-than-the-993/
*peers into Trout barrel and loads another round*
10-31-2014, 12:50 AM
Rennlist Member
Since Macca won't take the bait - I will
Porsche fashion' is always interesting and I do enjoy how the UK Porsche mag's try to 'engineer' people’s opinions. The side view photos in this article with a 964 on aftermarket 18's and lowered ride height, and the 993 on the ugliest 16's you can find and a rude ride height is just pure propaganda and insulting? Take a side shot of a 993 RS on speedlines or 993 Cup Car to make a fairer comparison as the 964 image used is essentially a Cup Car with those rims.
I have early Total 911 mags that used to pitch the 964 against the 911 C3.2 and the C3.2 was the more 'soulful' car and 964's had oils leaks and cost moon beams to own and maintain and were politely considered 'dogs'..........A more interesting article would be why Total 911 Jurno's no longer think 964's are troublesome and expensive to own - what has 'magically' changed on all of these cars?
About 5 years ago the 993 was the Holy Grail - last of the air cooled and considered the prettiest shape by many etc. This opinion is fading..........
The comments about mid cornering 'feel' etc. are all bull sh*t - as if both examples were running original suspension and tyres - they'd both drive very average, or comparing a 964 on 18's and a 993 on 16's with high profile tyres is just not a fair comparison. Both cars can handle exceptionally well with rebuilt suspension, lowering and dialling in for the track or B roads, as many of these cars are now. These performance comments are moot points and 'borrowed opinions'. Today with these cars now 20 years old, performance and handling is more to do with how much time and money the owner has to dial their car in to best practice and personal taste.
Having driven both - the 993 is faster than a 964 in a comparable setup - no question. Our local lap times across a dozen or so cars on casual track days clearly demonstrate a 993 is a few seconds quicker.
I also think the 993 has a much better gear box. The 6 gears make a big difference. A 993 also has significantly better brakes.
Aesthetics are personal - a 964 with D90's is not pretty, but once on Cup II's or Speedlines at RS ride height is sexy. The same can be said for a 993. The front lights on a 964 are more classical, but the **** on the 993 is the nicest of the 911 range.......
I know this is an 'opinion piece', but it really is light weight amateur material and quite annoying.
10-31-2014, 01:08 AM
Rennlist Member
Not even dusk and the fish are biting hard.
10-31-2014, 01:10 AM
Drifting
I was waiting for a good 64 vs 93 debate.
I've had both and I'm not qualified enough to say which one is best. Not least the few years between driving each one.
I'd have the looks of a toughened up 64 and the go of a 93.
With each one though something always nagged me, the show part more so than the go part;
The 93 is a bit pinched in the front, nice rear though.
The 64 is a bit bulbous around the jowls with the fat bumpers on what was a lithe body.
Both can be fixed as Paul says with the right stance and wheels
So what am I saying then?
A 64 turbo is perfection as the fat guards balance out the fat bumpers
A 93 turbo has a better face and fatter rear end (but a C4S looks better with no tail)
But a narrow body long hood with a big donk wins. Ha!
I've had both and I'm not qualified enough to say which one is best. Not least the few years between driving each one.
I'd have the looks of a toughened up 64 and the go of a 93.
With each one though something always nagged me, the show part more so than the go part;
The 93 is a bit pinched in the front, nice rear though.
The 64 is a bit bulbous around the jowls with the fat bumpers on what was a lithe body.
Both can be fixed as Paul says with the right stance and wheels
So what am I saying then?
A 64 turbo is perfection as the fat guards balance out the fat bumpers
A 93 turbo has a better face and fatter rear end (but a C4S looks better with no tail)
But a narrow body long hood with a big donk wins. Ha!
10-31-2014, 01:17 AM
Rennlist Member
10-31-2014, 01:25 AM
Rennlist Member
Hey Paul. Thanks for wading in! Its a great debate.
I concur with all you have said.
The 964 is enjoying a renaissance IMO on the back of the classic 911 bubble which has formed globally (and especially in the UK). Its down to only two real factors that I can identify.
The Price
The Shape (closer to the original concept). This is a function of fashion/trend
If you look at the 964 as a package compared to the previous generation 911 (lets say an early 3.2) there is little to benefit the 964 by way of handling. Heavier with power steering, less agile and more complex). Watching David pedal Steves old RS replica on NITT and at HD in July reminded me again that something lighter with a well sorted chassis and manual rack can be quicker than a more modern car. Id be surprised if he was any slower in that car than his old 964...I digress.
The 964s resurgence has come on the back of the global popularity of the classic 911 (longhood). The UK media I agree have led the charge here. I have the complete collection of 911 & Porsche World and Total 911 and until a few years ago the 964 received few accolades other than its affordability. Its ironic to read early reviews in the day of the likes of the 964/993RS variants then read todays waxing lyrical - brings home how the cars havent changed in 20 years but the nostalgia sets in and its only the writers whos views have changed.
Fast forward 24 months and the only thing that has changed is time and sentiment. The cars remain the same - just older and in many cases backdated or butchered.
The 993 in that time has not changed that I have observed in the eyes of the journalists. Comparatively therefore it has somewhat fallen out of favour by camparison to the 964 and earlier variants (save the RS, GT2 and Turbo S models).
Its a great debate and one that will rage on well beyond today. In 14 years of 993 ownership I have never looked at the 964 as a potential trade for my car. A GT3 yes, but a 964 no. Obviously its down to personal taste. I've driven many model variants of the 964/993 range (964RS, 3.3T, 993C2,C4,C4S, RS and 993TT). None of my Porsche purchasing decisions have particularly been determined based on budget. If I really wanted a 964RS I guess I would own one. Same said for a 997 GT3 for that matter.
There is no doubt the 993 is a better handling package (the same can be said of the 996 vs the 993 etc). It is better built, brakes better, corners better and has a better box. However incremental those changes are the decision between a 993 and 964 IMO comes down again to just two things...
The Price (the delta has decreased recently)
The Shape - if you dont let the media affect your views then this becomes a subjective and personal choice.
I like the 964 C2 and think its a great entry into Porsche aircooled cars. The price is modest, its reasonably modern and it looks great in a "retro" sort of way. If I were in the market for a first Porsche to modify and do track and road work today it would be high on my list.
Which car is more popular. Guess it depends on who you believe. Today the UK media will tell you the 964. This NZ RL board will tell you the 993. Afterall there are twice as many regular contributors on this board with 993s than 964s!
Let the debate rage on :-)
I concur with all you have said.
The 964 is enjoying a renaissance IMO on the back of the classic 911 bubble which has formed globally (and especially in the UK). Its down to only two real factors that I can identify.
The Price
The Shape (closer to the original concept). This is a function of fashion/trend
If you look at the 964 as a package compared to the previous generation 911 (lets say an early 3.2) there is little to benefit the 964 by way of handling. Heavier with power steering, less agile and more complex). Watching David pedal Steves old RS replica on NITT and at HD in July reminded me again that something lighter with a well sorted chassis and manual rack can be quicker than a more modern car. Id be surprised if he was any slower in that car than his old 964...I digress.
The 964s resurgence has come on the back of the global popularity of the classic 911 (longhood). The UK media I agree have led the charge here. I have the complete collection of 911 & Porsche World and Total 911 and until a few years ago the 964 received few accolades other than its affordability. Its ironic to read early reviews in the day of the likes of the 964/993RS variants then read todays waxing lyrical - brings home how the cars havent changed in 20 years but the nostalgia sets in and its only the writers whos views have changed.
Fast forward 24 months and the only thing that has changed is time and sentiment. The cars remain the same - just older and in many cases backdated or butchered.
The 993 in that time has not changed that I have observed in the eyes of the journalists. Comparatively therefore it has somewhat fallen out of favour by camparison to the 964 and earlier variants (save the RS, GT2 and Turbo S models).
Its a great debate and one that will rage on well beyond today. In 14 years of 993 ownership I have never looked at the 964 as a potential trade for my car. A GT3 yes, but a 964 no. Obviously its down to personal taste. I've driven many model variants of the 964/993 range (964RS, 3.3T, 993C2,C4,C4S, RS and 993TT). None of my Porsche purchasing decisions have particularly been determined based on budget. If I really wanted a 964RS I guess I would own one. Same said for a 997 GT3 for that matter.
There is no doubt the 993 is a better handling package (the same can be said of the 996 vs the 993 etc). It is better built, brakes better, corners better and has a better box. However incremental those changes are the decision between a 993 and 964 IMO comes down again to just two things...
The Price (the delta has decreased recently)
The Shape - if you dont let the media affect your views then this becomes a subjective and personal choice.
I like the 964 C2 and think its a great entry into Porsche aircooled cars. The price is modest, its reasonably modern and it looks great in a "retro" sort of way. If I were in the market for a first Porsche to modify and do track and road work today it would be high on my list.
Which car is more popular. Guess it depends on who you believe. Today the UK media will tell you the 964. This NZ RL board will tell you the 993. Afterall there are twice as many regular contributors on this board with 993s than 964s!
Let the debate rage on :-)
10-31-2014, 01:25 AM
Burning Brakes
10-31-2014, 02:10 AM
Rennlist Member
Yes wide body 964's are the dogs bollox. It's no secret that I lust after a 3.6T (just look at the dribble around John's car), But a 993 RS in comfort or clubsport spec is ultra-tasty too.
I guess it's bit like deciding between Claudia Shaffer or Ellie McP, there are no losers - I'd even let you have first pick and be more than happy with the consolation prize
10-31-2014, 02:14 AM
Rennlist Member
I was waiting for a good 64 vs 93 debate.
I've had both and I'm not qualified enough to say which one is best. Not least the few years between driving each one.
I'd have the looks of a toughened up 64 and the go of a 93.
With each one though something always nagged me, the show part more so than the go part;
The 93 is a bit pinched in the front, nice rear though.
The 64 is a bit bulbous around the jowls with the fat bumpers on what was a lithe body.
Both can be fixed as Paul says with the right stance and wheels
So what am I saying then?
A 64 turbo is perfection as the fat guards balance out the fat bumpers
A 93 turbo has a better face and fatter rear end (but a C4S looks better with no tail)
But a narrow body long hood with a big donk wins. Ha!
I've had both and I'm not qualified enough to say which one is best. Not least the few years between driving each one.
I'd have the looks of a toughened up 64 and the go of a 93.
With each one though something always nagged me, the show part more so than the go part;
The 93 is a bit pinched in the front, nice rear though.
The 64 is a bit bulbous around the jowls with the fat bumpers on what was a lithe body.
Both can be fixed as Paul says with the right stance and wheels
So what am I saying then?
A 64 turbo is perfection as the fat guards balance out the fat bumpers
A 93 turbo has a better face and fatter rear end (but a C4S looks better with no tail)
But a narrow body long hood with a big donk wins. Ha!
I agree mostly with your sentiments. The 964T is a great shape and one of the sexiest factory cars produced. Ive driven the 3.3T version. It cant hold a candle to a 993TT from a performance perspective (I have more extensive fast road drive time in the 993TT should be confessed). That said I think the 964T a great garage ornament. the only two folk I have known to drive the 964T in anger (and on the track) are Jamie and Jason and I applaud both of them for doing so. Its a fairly hairy car to truly drive with pace. As Ive said many a time however, IMO the 3.3T I believe is the stand out long term investment at the moment...
Last edited by Macca; 10-31-2014 at 02:30 AM.
10-31-2014, 02:24 AM
Rennlist Member
Yes wide body 964's are the dogs bollox. It's no secret that I lust after a 3.6T (just look at the dribble around John's car), But a 993 RS in comfort or clubsport spec is ultra-tasty too.
I guess it's bit like deciding between Claudia Shaffer or Ellie McP, there are no losers - I'd even let you have first pick and be more than happy with the consolation prize
I guess it's bit like deciding between Claudia Shaffer or Ellie McP, there are no losers - I'd even let you have first pick and be more than happy with the consolation prize
10-31-2014, 02:58 AM
Depends what era you grew up in sometimes, 993 GT2, Turbo S & RS are undeniably beautiful, pinnacle cars to the market.
Mine had historically been 930's & 964's, however, following a narrow bodied 993 is the best view on the road imo
Mine had historically been 930's & 964's, however, following a narrow bodied 993 is the best view on the road imo
10-31-2014, 03:08 AM
Rennlist Member
Pel. I think that's definitely a factor and explains why a lot of the earlier cars are escalating in price. Folks in their teens in the 70's are now old enough to afford a flutter especially if they have done well financially.
However I should think much of the recent price bubble has been driven by cheap money and negligible yield available using traditional financial instruments. If you are earning Euro, USD, GBP or Yen you possibly better off putting your money into a few classic cars than in a term deposit. I have a few I know in UK and Europe who are currently doing very well speculating with this new "asset class".
However just like the last two classic car booms/busts in my adult lifetime, when the music stops someone is holding the parcel!
That being said. Id rather be holding a 993RS I paid 400K for that is now worth 200K than a pile of paper investments once worth 200K now worth nothing - at least you can drive an enjoy the car (probably more so now as its has less value!).
However I should think much of the recent price bubble has been driven by cheap money and negligible yield available using traditional financial instruments. If you are earning Euro, USD, GBP or Yen you possibly better off putting your money into a few classic cars than in a term deposit. I have a few I know in UK and Europe who are currently doing very well speculating with this new "asset class".
However just like the last two classic car booms/busts in my adult lifetime, when the music stops someone is holding the parcel!
That being said. Id rather be holding a 993RS I paid 400K for that is now worth 200K than a pile of paper investments once worth 200K now worth nothing - at least you can drive an enjoy the car (probably more so now as its has less value!).
10-31-2014, 04:31 AM
Rennlist Member
Im pretty sure the Targa drivers must be fairly shagged by now. Its an endurance event.
Doug/Graeme check in when you can and let us know how things went today....
Doug/Graeme check in when you can and let us know how things went today....