Spokes

Thanks, I will check. The guys at the shop did program it for me when I picked it up. He certainly "talked the talk!".

So far very good, picked up a radar several km away, got bored waiting for the car to arrive!

S

996tnz

Yes, avoidance is better than a cure, and no-one becomes spin proof - though Ferrari, Porsche and others are marshalling armies of 'drift mode' algorithms to that end. Even Rohrl couldn't quite keep a 918 out of the barrier recently.

So I'm under no illusions and fully realise that every big moment is a ticket in the prang lottery. On the other hand, I personally believe that until she's over 90 degrees rotated, there's still hope of bringing her back into line with suitable inputs.

My spin recovery batting average has got up to about 50:50, (same wet or dry) but I'd like to improve on that and keep smoothing my inputs. I don't have video of that noisy save exiting the esses at Taupo during the torrential NITT a couple of years back (only AIM traces) but while it was effective and saved me having her flatbedded away it was also pretty messy. Too touch and go for my liking and personal risk appetite. So yeah, it's an area that I'll continue analysing and working on.

The less I spin the happier I am. Not much to offer by way of example but here is that one again from the 'Last of the Summer Rum' track day a year or so ago, where we both spun in the sweeper after they reopened the track post oil spill. My inputs got bigger and bigger, and somewhat out of phase with the rhythm of the fish tail, resulting in a full spin:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2odu8w_walt-996-turbo-wet-spin-hampton-downs-t10-28-4-2015_auto
And a recent recovery (at 40s in) when the rear swung out in Turn 8 at HD back in January. Hard to spot probably but halfway through I remembered to taper down my inputs - a deliberate response when a burst of adrenaline had me all amped up to instead react stronger like that other time above:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x40ackh_porsche-turbo-fishtail-save-nzfmr-2016-porsche-sprints-race3-lap1_auto
I don't think I could have done any better than Leong in the circumstances of his high speed spin (and quite possibly worse), but I thank him for sharing and I hope that my own limited experiences may possibly help someone else one day. I've certainly learned and continue to learn from others here, not least Mark Hellier's handling of his total brake failure at last year's Dunlop 800.

Maybe I'm not fatalistic enough but if the car's not on its roof I figure I still have some say over what it does.

Macca

Well done on that Jan one after the rain shower. I always remember that video. Heroic effort but unfortunately no chocolate fish. Frankly it was in save able I suspect even tho for s moment you look like you had it. Take away the 4WD and it gets even more futile. I just hung on to the wheel and waited for the 360 to end. Small upsets in the dry I can catch with the GT3 and 993. I think I've only spun a car twice on the track in the dry both times the993 both time up and over the hill after T2. Buba did it here too in my car. Seems she won't take a flat foot unloaded no matter how many brave pills you take. I've given up trying to find time in this spot.

Sat I was having oversteer moments coming out of the hairpin before the straight leading to B51. Car was generally handling awful. All of a sudden I realised how possible it is to put it into the barrier there like Jason and Michael have done. That corner has caused more trouble/damage than any other for RSG members over the years...

Leong72

Hi Walt,
I think avoiding the situation is the best, i.e. recognising that the tyres were overheating and not pushing around tricky fast turns in this case.

But on the other hand in general, if you're pushing to go quicker, then you're going to be on the limit more of the time also. I don't think there's enough time to think about what you're doing when it actually happens. Practice on a skid pan, e.g. at Mt Cotton, or at Mike Eady's M3 day at Philip Island help a lot I think. From what I hear, having quick hands and quick reactions make the difference. If I can get permission from Racing Ray, I'd like to post a clip from the last RSG day when he was instructing me. Are you there on Wednesday?

996tnz

Agreed Leong, and I think tyres were maybe a factor in my second example too. I warmed them pretty aggressively on the way to the grid, but I think that probably does more for the fronts than for the rears. I was taking that same corner quicker in subsequent laps without incident so maybe the rears hadn't yet built up as much grip as the fronts by the fourth corner of the race.

Not Wednesday sorry. Have been fortunate to have Ray coach me several times, though have never got too loose with him onboard. Would love to see that other clip if he's OK with you posting it.

I've done the skidpan once at HD on a driver training day, but found it a bit of a random unfocussed fang, even with an instructor aboard. Mt Cotton no doubt more valuable. I agree with your point though, and have found autocross and rallycross very helpful in becoming more comfortable in getting a car loose and catching her again. Weirdly, my brain seems to speed up several times over during these moments so a few seconds still somehow gives me just enough time to consider what I'm doing, after reflexes have already kicked in earlier. But usually only long enough for one or two pre-primed decisions overlaid on those reflexes. It's a good and a bad thing, because the wrong decision (eg applying extra power during a drift to try to throw extra torque up front to pull her straight - works in an Audi but not a Turbo) is worse than just reacting automatically. Which is why I try to suss some stuff out ahead of time.

Enjoy Wednesday everyone!

John McM

Same corner used to give Dave moments in the Red c2 aka Lola. I also saw how Easy it would be to overdo it when I was in the R. Herman is a no brainer in that corner. Didn't know how lucky I was.

Hope the open track day is dry and no one tempts fate in that corner. I landed in Perth today so I'll be limited to looking at pics and hearing the usual stories.

Leong72

That's something to know for next time, but with racing, not that I've had much experience, how hard you push is often determined by what's happening around you on track

Yes, I found HD Skid pan a bit random and an unfocussed fang is a perfect description. Hence the reference to Mt Cotton and Philip Island. We also did a wet track at Taupo with Mike Eady once and that was OK also. Rally cross must be the ultimate training though

996tnz

Thanks Macca. Yes, I didn't like my chances when she let go that time. The first little twitch of the wheel was me reflexively looking to catch it while staying on the narrow drier line that hugged the inside of the sweeper, and the bigger catch attempt an instant later was me realising that the loaded outside rear tyre was continuing to slide wider into the much wetter and slicker zone out wide. Followed closely by realising that she was carrying far too much speed to be able to take the corner properly once off the dry line. Normally mild acceleration helps settle the rear but I couldn't afford to add much more speed out there so pretty much just fought the fishtail. Luckily fishtailing itself does a fair job of slowing a car and I distinctly remember the point about 2 or 3 wags in when she'd slowed enough for us to likely avoid the walls. I do suspect that a better driver could have caught her then but the very act of thinking 'phew, we've slowed enough not to hit anything' was enough of a distraction to put paid to any chance of a recovery.

The 996 Turbo's AWD is nothing compared to most, but it does help in the wet. Talking of brave pills, I suggested to Ray that I could take a few more for Turn 1 later that same day on our post-coaching cool down lap and he looked at me like I was mad.

Discretion probably the better part of valour there then I suspect Macca. There would be a serious outbreak of mourning either of your beauties had a serious prang. I'm probably not the only one to have got attached to them over their time on Rennlist. Plus your good self of course.

Yes, ChrisB on my tail!

Leong72

Haha, You must have been.... That video that I'll show you at some stage, shows him pushing me hard such that we were sliding around on quite a few occasions - He's not afraid to push you so if he thought you were fine at T1, there's probably easier places to improve your times than T1!!

996tnz

On second thoughts, an outbreak of too much common sense might just throw us off our game. Testing and extending our abilities is all part of the fun and we all know we're not heading out to play lawn bowls. I should probably have said that there's a 1:10 flat just waiting for your new tyres!

gt38088

Walt/Leong/Macca, In my experience theory is a poor substitute for practice, and practice is quite hard to get because it involves pushing beyond the normal comfort levels which most of us don't really do on a regular basis. I have had my share of hard knocks too so not claiming superior knowledge at all here. But my 2cents
1) I find the good drivers always have a fine tuned feel for all the clues as to grip levels and know intuitively how hard to push - just enough but not too much. They don't miss-read conditions so much and when they do overstep its always in a more gradual and recoverable way.
2) One thing I learnt Ice Driving in Sweden was that the pro instructors anticipate the next action of the car and are winding off lock before the car actually starts the fishtail back the other way. If you wait for the car to actually start moving back it is a bit late. This is a very hard thing to do because the brain and bum can't yet feel the swing back - but they can intuitively counter steer anyway.
3) The pro guys also know what action is going to result in loss of traction and in the rally/ice situation are in fact provoking it to position the car how they want. This is why their sense/feel for traction is so highly developed.

Macca

LOL! A 1.10 is not in any way likely. Infact to be fair it would be damn well scary. I've been finding it hard enough to dip below 13! I think Jeff has found a bug in my DSC module software (actually a hole) and hopefully Wednesday the car will handle more like its former self. I may even keep the old tyres on her just to ensure we are using constant variables...

996tnz

Thanks Graeme. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping to get from some of you more experienced guys when I asked earlier. Nice how you broke it down - learning to drive the limit, and learning how to recover from trespasses over that limit are separate but closely related skills. Yes, there is no substitute for years of experience overlaid on whatever natural talent might be there, but it also helps to be given a leg up every now and again by those who have done those hard yards. So the detail you provided on the pro ice coaches technique is much appreciated.

On point 3, going through rally coaching vids recently gave me a much better understanding of why rallyists look to get as sideways as they do. You'll be able to put it better probably but as I understand it, it is partly to make the car slide when they expect it (rather than breaking loose unexpectedly), partly to use the more effective braking action of the sidewalls on loose surfaces, partly to line the car up for throttle-brake steering, and partly to rotate early to give them more exit options/safety margin.

Sorry to be talking more theory. You had mentioned some of that rally cornering technique to me before Graeme, but some of the rest was a bit of a revelation to me. Not as good as a bunch of experience of course, but it did still help my confidence while sliding around at Baypark.

996tnz

Pushing it while going light over an in-turn crest can catch out the best Macca: here is that 918 crash I mentioned earlier (probably be much worse if it wasn't Rohrl at the wheel of course):

996tnz

Fellow Team RSGers, just a heads up that the 2KCup Taupo round is on this Saturday, with optional practice on Friday. Anyone up for taking our revamped BB2 down for her baptism of fire? And/or the Grinch of course, given a trailer. Entries open at MotorsportEntry.com (Great Lakes Meeting 2016). There's also a 75min enduro on Saturday at that meet for fully caged Hondas (ie the Grinch) if someone wants to play 'get out of their way' with the Honda Cup guys.