Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
03-31-2016, 04:59 PM
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Guys - there was definitely debris on the track on the main straight - from memory around the start/finish or maybe on from that a bit. I noticed a bit of black plastic, I'm guessing around 15cm x 15cm - looked like a bit of grill or similar and was vaguely aware of a couple of other bits in the same vicinity. That was about 45 mins before the end of the day.
CSI:RSG Walt!!
CSI:RSG Walt!!
03-31-2016, 06:20 PM
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JMc - its official, Herman now controls you, you don't control him.
Just for a sanity check - a 964 is still the cheapest 911 model you can buy except for a 996 (which is climbing in value and only about $10K cheaper), so you are taking basically the cheapest 911 Pcar to the track.
Based on Chris B's experiences (and those in the know, know how much he has spent), a $20-30K entry car can cost you six figures if you want to go to the track. This excludes the engine build that is required after only a couple track days.
By the time you cage it, sort the suspension, spare tyres, new disks, deep sump, racing seat, pads et. al. - you are well north of $50K on day one.
The only sub $50K solution is an existing 944 S2 for circa $30K (assuming the engine and box are fresh-ish) - otherwise this is a $50K+ option too.
So either just enjoy Herman on track days, or live vicariously............(like I do with Macca travelling 6 months of the year)
Just for a sanity check - a 964 is still the cheapest 911 model you can buy except for a 996 (which is climbing in value and only about $10K cheaper), so you are taking basically the cheapest 911 Pcar to the track.
Based on Chris B's experiences (and those in the know, know how much he has spent), a $20-30K entry car can cost you six figures if you want to go to the track. This excludes the engine build that is required after only a couple track days.
By the time you cage it, sort the suspension, spare tyres, new disks, deep sump, racing seat, pads et. al. - you are well north of $50K on day one.
The only sub $50K solution is an existing 944 S2 for circa $30K (assuming the engine and box are fresh-ish) - otherwise this is a $50K+ option too.
So either just enjoy Herman on track days, or live vicariously............(like I do with Macca travelling 6 months of the year)
03-31-2016, 08:03 PM
Rennlist Member
JMc - its official, Herman now controls you, you don't control him.
Just for a sanity check - a 964 is still the cheapest 911 model you can buy except for a 996 (which is climbing in value and only about $10K cheaper), so you are taking basically the cheapest 911 Pcar to the track.
Based on Chris B's experiences (and those in the know, know how much he has spent), a $20-30K entry car can cost you six figures if you want to go to the track. This excludes the engine build that is required after only a couple track days.
By the time you cage it, sort the suspension, spare tyres, new disks, deep sump, racing seat, pads et. al. - you are well north of $50K on day one.
The only sub $50K solution is an existing 944 S2 for circa $30K (assuming the engine and box are fresh-ish) - otherwise this is a $50K+ option too.
So either just enjoy Herman on track days, or live vicariously............(like I do with Macca travelling 6 months of the year)
Just for a sanity check - a 964 is still the cheapest 911 model you can buy except for a 996 (which is climbing in value and only about $10K cheaper), so you are taking basically the cheapest 911 Pcar to the track.
Based on Chris B's experiences (and those in the know, know how much he has spent), a $20-30K entry car can cost you six figures if you want to go to the track. This excludes the engine build that is required after only a couple track days.
By the time you cage it, sort the suspension, spare tyres, new disks, deep sump, racing seat, pads et. al. - you are well north of $50K on day one.
The only sub $50K solution is an existing 944 S2 for circa $30K (assuming the engine and box are fresh-ish) - otherwise this is a $50K+ option too.
So either just enjoy Herman on track days, or live vicariously............(like I do with Macca travelling 6 months of the year)
03-31-2016, 09:15 PM
Based on Chris B's experiences (and those in the know, know how much he has spent), a $20-30K entry car can cost you six figures if you want to go to the track. This excludes the engine build that is required after only a couple track days.
By the time you cage it, sort the suspension, spare tyres, new disks, deep sump, racing seat, pads et. al. - you are well north of $50K on day one.
The only sub $50K solution is an existing 944 S2 for circa $30K (assuming the engine and box are fresh-ish) - otherwise this is a $50K+ option too.
So either just enjoy Herman on track days, or live vicariously............(like I do with Macca travelling 6 months of the year)
By the time you cage it, sort the suspension, spare tyres, new disks, deep sump, racing seat, pads et. al. - you are well north of $50K on day one.
The only sub $50K solution is an existing 944 S2 for circa $30K (assuming the engine and box are fresh-ish) - otherwise this is a $50K+ option too.
So either just enjoy Herman on track days, or live vicariously............(like I do with Macca travelling 6 months of the year)
For those in between, there is no shortage of options. From tackling the PCNZ Sprints as is, treating your daily driver to race pads and R-comps, adding more serious track mods, or going up against 40+ other racers in a 2KCupper for 33 minutes plus, it's all there to be done. And done pretty easily here in NZ!
Circuit driving is not the only game in town and there is always another hill to climb for the keen, but those taking their car to a racetrack to give it a workout every now and then on track days are probably already in the top one percent of drivers, and part of the motorsport family in my book.
03-31-2016, 09:25 PM
Rennlist Member
Just over three years ago we were rocking up to Playdays with street cars sporting very little in the way of enhancements. Michael and Jason are probably the only ones still running their original cars, largely unchanged. The rest of us have joined the arms race in one way or another. BB was designed to take that back a step and we had some fun, but lets face it the brand snobs could only take it for so long. There's no reason a fun track car needs a $20k spend on top of the purchase price. I already have wheels, seat, harness etc. A bit of preventative work and I think I'll be ready to run for ~ $20k. I can throw it into every corner with out a care. Can't do that with a sorted Herman.
If I sold the GT3 I would be using my 993 at the track. She has done 3+ track days this year and a Targa Tour last year. The argument being that its far cheaper for me to provision ongoing maintenance on a sorted 993 than it is to take a poorly maintained example of any model (following Pauls logic) and getting it track reliable. Sure, Id need a gearbox rebuild every 4-5 years and a top end too as well as brakes, rotors and all those bits but amortized over 5 years that would be cheaper than bringing a basket case up to snuff let alone running it over that time.
I think it is the paint job John. let it be known by all that a new glass out respray is the kiss of death for Pcar ownership/enjoyment ;-P
The only sane answer to all of this is a Lotus or Fraser. A well sorted one of those will cost you 4-50K on the way in and cost you a set of tyres/pads every season. IMO a Lotus (by way of example) is the cheapest way to go 1.20 sub reliably. Other options are Renault sport products such as Megene RS265, essentially a new car, pads rotors, fluid and tyres and you are set for 1.20s all day long.
Your 964 is probably good for a mid 1.18 on Z221 John. Just needs a nasty master. You should take some panadol and ibuprofen (brave pills) morning of a track day and tell yourself in the mirror "I will scare myself sh*tless today at least once a lap". I do. Youll be amazed how late you can brake into T1 and how much speed you can carry through the sweeper. Nothing like bringing her home in one piece after beating your PB I reckon. Jan at HD & Taupo in the 993 was those moments for me. I really enjoyed them, poor old girl was thinking retirement but was handed a pounding!
03-31-2016, 09:43 PM
Had a look through the footage in slow motion, and that mark looks to be a scratch/mark in the track surface. Looking at the exit tyre marks, there's a discernible tyre pattern in both (the right is more pronounced but assume this is due to load), and aside from the strange shudder the ride out is relatively smooth.
Lastly, am I right in remembering that you have the trick TPC DSC suspension module? Hard to find anything but praise for them and they look to be awesome but Macca mentioned that his was upsetting his handling the other day and I noticed that like most mods there appear to be some tradeoffs, though they shouldn't manifest on a smooth track like HD, nor when not hard on the brakes:
...the stiffening under braking can be good sometimes, but less good others. About the latter, let me elaborate - if you're pulling up to an intersection where the pavement has been rippled by use, the stiffening of the front seems to make the wheels want to bounce or hop a little on these bumps instead of just absorb them - my ABS didn't engage but it felt "rougher". However, I had to slow down quickly on the highway today for a truck that decided to move into my lane, and on smooth pavement, the anti-dive characteristics are great - even better, more controlled stopping than with the OEM setup, and I have PCCBs so they stopped pretty well before!
The other thing I notice is that at times, the car can feel a little twitchy in certain circumstances. I did a lane change on a noticeably crested two lane highway from the left lane to the right lane and when I turned right, I felt the left front stiffen. As the car came over the road crest with the stiffer left front, it made the crest feel more significant than it looked like it should, almost like the car pushed off the crest, or maybe the stiffer front left just made the car more responsive which gave me that perception.
The other thing I notice is that at times, the car can feel a little twitchy in certain circumstances. I did a lane change on a noticeably crested two lane highway from the left lane to the right lane and when I turned right, I felt the left front stiffen. As the car came over the road crest with the stiffer left front, it made the crest feel more significant than it looked like it should, almost like the car pushed off the crest, or maybe the stiffer front left just made the car more responsive which gave me that perception.
Thank you very much for your review. After driving a number of cars with DSC including 5K street and track miles in my personal car I agree with you on the braking on very choppy surface. To me, that is the only down side but I can deal with it by braking early and with less effort to avoid the shake. It is good that this condition is not common on street and even less common on race tracks. I have been driving mostly in Mode 1 on street so that makes it less noticeable. In your particular case, the Bilstein 260 in-lb short front springs with fully compressed tender springs can get pretty choppy. We convert a lot of our local customer with a longer spring and increase the spring rate to 350 in-lb and delete the tender springs. This actually make the car ride nicer in all condition and have even more front end support. This is achieved using longer length of spring wire. Its worth considering as a future mod.
As for the drift on off camber turns, my perspective is that DSC makes adjusting the line more precise which consequentially makes a car that has semi-aggressive to aggressive alignment settings pull if there's a relaxed grip on the steering wheel. Not an issue for me, it just requires that I pay more attention on public roads with off camber turns...
As for the drift on off camber turns, my perspective is that DSC makes adjusting the line more precise which consequentially makes a car that has semi-aggressive to aggressive alignment settings pull if there's a relaxed grip on the steering wheel. Not an issue for me, it just requires that I pay more attention on public roads with off camber turns...
Even if you do have it fitted Jake, I think the dynamic suspension control is probably an unlikely suspect versus others like tyres, brakes, ABS, rest of the suspension etc.
We might just have to put it down to the T1 Bermuda triangle I suppose, with that weird sound being just an alien tractor beam almost getting a lock on you.
03-31-2016, 09:59 PM
One brave pill too many may cause serious indigestion though.
03-31-2016, 10:05 PM
Rennlist Member
She's not yet driving! The split in the pressure hose (off the turbo into the intercooler, split when the tyre tucked into the wheel arch and squashed it) means the cars sitting at Giltrap until the part arrives from Germany.
Hadn't considered the DSC, but having a vague understanding of how the dynamic shocks work, I wouldn't expect it possible for them to be the cause. I have followed that thread since it started, is worth a read for anyone interested in the DSC.
Rotors, pads, fluids and tyres were all ok. ABS is a possibility. I had an alert on the dash related to ABS and PSM when it came to a stop, but I'd assumed this was due to the loss of traction and the tyre coming off the rim in the kitty litter.
Bermuda Turn 1 it is then, and thankfully I remain probe free!
Hadn't considered the DSC, but having a vague understanding of how the dynamic shocks work, I wouldn't expect it possible for them to be the cause. I have followed that thread since it started, is worth a read for anyone interested in the DSC.
Rotors, pads, fluids and tyres were all ok. ABS is a possibility. I had an alert on the dash related to ABS and PSM when it came to a stop, but I'd assumed this was due to the loss of traction and the tyre coming off the rim in the kitty litter.
Bermuda Turn 1 it is then, and thankfully I remain probe free!
03-31-2016, 10:38 PM
Rennlist Member
Ill play devils advocate here.
If I sold the GT3 I would be using my 993 at the track. She has done 3+ track days this year and a Targa Tour last year. The argument being that its far cheaper for me to provision ongoing maintenance on a sorted 993 than it is to take a poorly maintained example of any model (following Pauls logic) and getting it track reliable. Sure, Id need a gearbox rebuild every 4-5 years and a top end too as well as brakes, rotors and all those bits but amortized over 5 years that would be cheaper than bringing a basket case up to snuff let alone running it over that time.
I think it is the paint job John. let it be known by all that a new glass out respray is the kiss of death for Pcar ownership/enjoyment ;-P
The only sane answer to all of this is a Lotus or Fraser. A well sorted one of those will cost you 4-50K on the way in and cost you a set of tyres/pads every season. IMO a Lotus (by way of example) is the cheapest way to go 1.20 sub reliably. Other options are Renault sport products such as Megene RS265, essentially a new car, pads rotors, fluid and tyres and you are set for 1.20s all day long.
Your 964 is probably good for a mid 1.18 on Z221 John. Just needs a nasty master. You should take some panadol and ibuprofen (brave pills) morning of a track day and tell yourself in the mirror "I will scare myself sh*tless today at least once a lap". I do. Youll be amazed how late you can brake into T1 and how much speed you can carry through the sweeper. Nothing like bringing her home in one piece after beating your PB I reckon. Jan at HD & Taupo in the 993 was those moments for me. I really enjoyed them, poor old girl was thinking retirement but was handed a pounding!
If I sold the GT3 I would be using my 993 at the track. She has done 3+ track days this year and a Targa Tour last year. The argument being that its far cheaper for me to provision ongoing maintenance on a sorted 993 than it is to take a poorly maintained example of any model (following Pauls logic) and getting it track reliable. Sure, Id need a gearbox rebuild every 4-5 years and a top end too as well as brakes, rotors and all those bits but amortized over 5 years that would be cheaper than bringing a basket case up to snuff let alone running it over that time.
I think it is the paint job John. let it be known by all that a new glass out respray is the kiss of death for Pcar ownership/enjoyment ;-P
The only sane answer to all of this is a Lotus or Fraser. A well sorted one of those will cost you 4-50K on the way in and cost you a set of tyres/pads every season. IMO a Lotus (by way of example) is the cheapest way to go 1.20 sub reliably. Other options are Renault sport products such as Megene RS265, essentially a new car, pads rotors, fluid and tyres and you are set for 1.20s all day long.
Your 964 is probably good for a mid 1.18 on Z221 John. Just needs a nasty master. You should take some panadol and ibuprofen (brave pills) morning of a track day and tell yourself in the mirror "I will scare myself sh*tless today at least once a lap". I do. Youll be amazed how late you can brake into T1 and how much speed you can carry through the sweeper. Nothing like bringing her home in one piece after beating your PB I reckon. Jan at HD & Taupo in the 993 was those moments for me. I really enjoyed them, poor old girl was thinking retirement but was handed a pounding!
I just want a more carefree track experience and a common kettle like a Boxster seems to be a better bet right now as there is no real emotion involved if I total it. Equally, they are not big $. I can't see Donna driving a Lotus or Fraser, but if I work at it long enough she would probably drive a Boxster.
PS: Herman will still visit the track if I see the conditions and participants are there to make it enjoyable. Not dissimilar to Doug's approach right now.
03-31-2016, 10:54 PM
Rennlist Member
The DSC is an interesting animal. You need to tune it by live logging the data (laptop stowed running in the car for a session) to understand what is really happening. We haven't nailed all the intricacies yet. For 26 March Playdays I was getting istabiltity after lifting off the brakes and turning in T1 and the sweeper. It made it impossible to get the right line. The traces showed the speed vs brake vs G tables were being upset and the transition time between them in mechanical terms was over a second (limitations of the Factory dampers probably plays s part here). This meant the outside left shock was soft when it needed to be hard etc. in T2 and over the hill the system worked well and saved time but I was giving it back on T1 and especially the sweeper/exit. We made some tweaks for 30th and it's improved but still not perfect for those corners, I need to swap back to the factory PASM to check but looking at the aim traces its no faster than stock here but feels less stable. Work in progress but Jeff is very good at reading the data and understanding the drivers feedback. The system does make the steering feel a little heavier in the corners due to shock stiffness, but I think I like this aspect. It's an interesting development but does need work to set it up right and an amateur would be lost getting this done. I'd highly recommend anyone with the unit hires Jeff for the day (split across s few parties) to log the data then come back with alternative maps. He has some excellent experience in setting cars up for a driver and if you give him a few clues to what you are feeling he will find the reason in the system and can tweak. IMO the DSC is not an off the shelf plug and play product for the weekend track junkie it needs setting up for s car and driver and maybe even different maps for different tracks. I don't think I have got the best out of the system yet but Jeff is working tirelessly to makes improvements etc
03-31-2016, 11:37 PM
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by John McM
If I was worried about the paint I wouldn't be going on B road runs (two so far). What's more of a concern is the $30k invested in the engine and gearbox rebuilds. I want this car to last the next 25 years with nothing but scheduled maintenance for both. As detailed by Graeme some time back the continued work at high rpm wears engines quickly. Similarly, Steve has told us to give synchros time to mesh on shifts or risk wearing the box.
I just want a more carefree track experience and a common kettle like a Boxster seems to be a better bet right now as there is no real emotion involved if I total it. Equally, they are not big $. I can't see Donna driving a Lotus or Fraser, but if I work at it long enough she would probably drive a Boxster.
PS: Herman will still visit the track if I see the conditions and participants are there to make it enjoyable. Not dissimilar to Doug's approach right now.
I just want a more carefree track experience and a common kettle like a Boxster seems to be a better bet right now as there is no real emotion involved if I total it. Equally, they are not big $. I can't see Donna driving a Lotus or Fraser, but if I work at it long enough she would probably drive a Boxster.
PS: Herman will still visit the track if I see the conditions and participants are there to make it enjoyable. Not dissimilar to Doug's approach right now.
03-31-2016, 11:40 PM
Rennlist Member
Walt and JMc, I think your comments about the 'arms race' and to hell with it are fair comments and healthy, I just note that NO ONE who does regular track days has a stock car, Michael having racing seats and sticky tyres and Jason having modified and rebuilt suspension as the examples given.
We are all competitive and try to do our personal best, this is why we are fortunate to own Pcars.
03-31-2016, 11:45 PM
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03-31-2016, 11:57 PM
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