Macca

Interesting perspective and quite provocative too as you say. Everything he says to put the 993 down us a character of older aircooled cars and so I think the weight of consensus is against him although I accept the pre water cooled cars interior ergonomics are chaos and the engine isn't as rev happy as a GT3. On the looks front and the sound, build quality etc the argument languishes IMO. After a wonderful lunch at a waterfront French restaurant I feel no need to fuel T911s forums, most already know my views on the publications spotty editor, Frankel the lacklustre journalist and the questionable value of the regurgitated content. In fact P911W magazine although superior is only just so and I think EVO & occasionally Octane will be the only rags getting my money next time around.

Glad you got some R&R in Buba!!

O2GO

^^^^ comparing a 993 (or older) Porsche to 996+ is pointless.

The later model will always have better
Handling
Performance
Fuel economy
Probably ergonomics
Electronics
Safety
Top speed
Power

Which is why the old cars are rubbish and aren't worth anything, and no one in their right mind would ever want one. Good argument bro.

Maxem

home.
See you fulla's tomorrow

Maxem

Fake Fuchs and 205-50-15
We are running cautiously high to avoid inner guard rub and potentially burnt paint until we get a better feel for it.

John McM

I'll be there to tell the true story before any myths start. Mr Miller must be on a mission as he's asked for my AIM.

Macca

Great work Dave.

Buba has invested in getting his GT3 set up for a "record run" so we expect to see a sub 14 from him tomorrow. No pressure! Conditions look perfect too. Not sure why your Aim is better than his John. Does it make laps faster? If so i want to borrow it next please :-)

kiwi 911

Ha ha - my sexy fingers have put my aim onto Italian, I need yours and your help to get mine back to English...........

I don't do enough track days to be up to speed these days. I need to get my **** into the Honda's and get some serious track time.......

JMc - bring your suit and helmet - you can come out for a spin.

Dave - very happy for you tomorrow mate - look forward the seeing the orange in action.......

kiwi 911

Mate - the only 'mod' is a set of 221's - the new geo was necessary as you and a few others witnessed when behind me - the car was snapping out of line on the NITT.

It will be interesting to see how much quicker 221's are? They are much louder on the road - Trofeo's are really quiet.

I don't think I got a handle on the temps on Trofeo's.

Macca - what pressures where you running hot on 221's? I was on 34PSI with the 993 - thinking 35-36 for the GT3??

The low 14's was only achieved by Steve acting as pace car and me trying to hold on for all dear life. Not sure it's achievable on my own-some....

964X33

Looks gorgeous Dave, great work. Enjoy. Hopefully get to see Mr Orange (?) in the flesh next month.

Macca

LOL. I have sexy fingers too. I have made many devices speak to me in languages unknown so I know now why you need Johns Aim translator!

Dude. You cant use my excuse for not being to speed :-) You need to find your own! With 6 x HD days to my name, even in this, your least frequent of years, you will have been at least as many times as I ever have! You need a headache or something. It works for my wife :-)

John. Your shutter skills at B51 maybe useful to Dave for understanding his height under compression. If there will be run I reckon it will be there...

John McM

Great but I hope you don't mean a Macca 'spin' I have longer arms than him to reach the wheel.

Ndewar

Here is another pic of the Veyron. Still makes me salivate.

Macca

Outside Harrods no less! Same my first Maclaren F1 in almost the same spot 10 years ago!

O2GO

Really looking forward to seeing, hearing and chasing you in the Orange T tomorrow Dave

Macca

Sorry was thinking the new Race Brake slotted rotors and alloy bells you had fitted but they aren't really an upgrade as such I agree.

Tidying up the geo will help. Maybe even the corner weight balancing (until John sits in the passenger seat).

You geo was pretty good before (-3.0F/-2.5R). Those settings work well as track settings for me in the 993. They have put some toe out up front and a little more toe in at the rear but Im not sure you will notice this much on the track. The thing you'll notice the most is the tires. Maybe also the toe out at the front on the road (bit darty etc). The Z221 is a totally different tyre than the Trofeo R. Changing tyres and geo at the same time makes it hard to understand what is working, but my guess is you want to go hot pressure 32F &34R. That is what I use on the 993 with those tyres. The Trofeo R is a really quick tyre when its set up properly. Your tail happiness was a function of your rear tyres being too hot IMO. Experience with the 991 Gt3 guys indicates a second benefit over a 1 minute track with the Trofeo but it must be kept between 28-32 hot. Most find 28F 30R. But its a different car with a different size tyre. The thing is with the Trofeo is it has a relatively stiff side wall like the Z221 so doesnt need huge pressures.

What many people dont understand is camber doesnt really make you faster as such. It does ensure the tyre has a better contact patch during extreme lateral movement, but regardless of stock factory -1.30/-1.30 or your -3.0/-3.0 when the tyre has rolled over it has rolled over. Contact patch becomes the same during extreme lateral changes. The real benefit of nailing camber is to have the tyre operating in its optimum temperature range for as many laps as possible before it "goes off". This wont affect your PB lap but rather how consistent you can make your fast lap times. Hitting a one off PB with nothing else close to it for the remainder of the session or the day isnt the real goal. I think tyre temperature and thus tyre wear and consistency are the reasons to play with Camber.

The toe and if you play with it then the castor can make changes to the feel of the car with the steering wheel.

Really the big things to play with to get your handling where you like it is IMO:

1). Tyre type

2). Tyre pressure/heat management (will take a few sessions to stabilize a hot temp and possibly a few days on a new tyre type to find the zone you like the feel of).

3). Sway bar position front and rear (understeer/oversteer)

4). Effectvive spring rates (if you can adjust them like KVV3/PSS10/Moton etc)

5). Toe settings

6). Camber

Pretty much in that order is my experience. Im about 2/3 through learning this on the 993 with the Z221 (the only R comp tyre Ive run on track with that car). I had the sway bars sorted, but the new LSD means I need to make some changes again. I think Im getting close with the spring rates (but only at HD as the other tracks are different), I have a good understanding of how the camber and toe affect the car now and have three preferred setting ranges (track, road & something in between). Still I need more seat time on the track to really fine tune the last 20% here. Im good with Z221 temps/pressures on the 993 but it did talk a few days to work out - NITT & SITT in 2013 & 2014 were great for this as you are using the car on track day after day so can start setting it up how you like it.

What I learned is you have to change one thing at a time or else you are lost. Tyres is a good start...

For the GT3 I am 100% factory stock right now apart from rear centre muffler bypass (sound). I now understand my tyre pressures on the MPSC2. I wont change to Trofeo even though they are faster because MPSC2 are better all round, last longer and I understand how they work - they arent so fussy with pressure so between sessions they cant become too cold etc. The price is the same too, but you trade a bit of track speed for better road tyre. Quiet too.

Almost every track day Ive driven the GT3 Ive become quicker than I was before and more consistent. Its slow build up because the car is much different from the 993. So far I understand the tyre pressures. At HD I run 1.5 psi less on the passenger side of the car after session 2. This helps manage shoulder wear a little bit. I think Im getting fast enough in the car soon to require a camber change to give better tyre life, but when you understand those tyres you realise they cycle out well before they cord. Im about to mount my 3rd set. Like others before me Im discovering there are about 25-30 heat cycles then a bit drop off. My first set has 40% tread left after 10,000km on road and 4 track days! But they are 0.2g less on the calibrated smarty cam now hen cornering. They dont hold as much traction any more.

Im pretty sure the Z221 drop off after 30 cycles too. In the 993 the rears were shot by then and I never got 6 days out of a set in any case so the timing was perfect.

For the GT3 & MPSC2 I dont think even with more aggressive camber the car will be any/noticeably faster, the shoulder wear may improve because of better contact patch under moderate lateral load but the fact is the tyre will still heat cycle out before it wears out. Given the cost of running teh car on the track I see it senseless to wast an extra 2 track days with 25% less grip when time on the track is limited and tyres are only part of the true running cost. Using them up on the road is ok, you dont get that close to the edge of their performance envelope to know any different.

I have a few advantages over you. The time to read alot of information and talk to alot of people with similar set up. I make video of all my laps and data traces and try to understand what I can do better because I have time to do that and long latency between days at the track. Much of my time is lost due to driver error, but I always make notes at the end of each trip to NZ on te car and how it handled and if there were any areas I need to look at. Last trip I went to see Ryan at Pierelli and we hoisted the car to look at tyre wear. I then saw Peter and we did the same. these guys have real world experience on NZ tracks and have forgotten more than i will ever know. Then I go away and research. Im not saying its the perfect solution but with the 993 it helped get that car competitive (given the experience of the driver) relatively quickly. Unfortunately I only ever did 8 track days in that car, but each of them faster and faster every session with lots more left to do to improve driver and cars handling. The fancy bits on the car have just meant more things to adjust. thats part of the nighmare.

My personal approach now having spent money and made mistakes would be to slow down (Yoda would approve!). Not speed, never speed LOL. I mean set the car up on a base set of factory specs for that model type relevant to useage, For 964/993 that would be say RS spec. Play with some tyre options find the one you like the most. Play with the tyre temps and sway bars (and spring rate sif you can) and get them where you need them. Drive, drive drive and when your lap times are not any longer improving or when you are chewing tyres up before they are cycling out then move to a more aggressive set up based off settings someone else has used successfully on similar tracks and similar skill level. The repeat again using you bum to tell you if its better or worse. Just change one set of variables at a time. Corner weight balance last, make sure you have adjustable drop links to do it properly etc

That's all I have to say about that....:-)