Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
05-18-2018, 08:26 AM
#5536
Rennlist Member
I checked into a new TCU unit. Cost is 600 bucks from Porsche and appears to be the same unit for all motor cayennes in 15/16. My thought is that it would have the "old" software loaded and could help the shifting. However, without knowing exactly what was changed between the ECU/TCU I am not sure it would help (plus may have to be coded by Porsche which may automatically upload new software). Any thoughts from those that might know a bit more about how the system works?
05-18-2018, 02:50 PM
#5537
Rennlist Member
Can't imagine they'd sell a TCU without the legally mandated software loaded now, after the settlement.
But if so, you're probably right that to make it work on your vehicle, they'd have to code it which would trigger the software update.
But if so, you're probably right that to make it work on your vehicle, they'd have to code it which would trigger the software update.
05-18-2018, 04:15 PM
#5538
Rennlist Member
^^^ looks like they are sold new without any coding (since it is used with different engines).
Just have to scavenger used parts stores and see if you can find one taken from a pre-fix Cayenne, Touareg or Q7. Then never let a dealer touch it
Just have to scavenger used parts stores and see if you can find one taken from a pre-fix Cayenne, Touareg or Q7. Then never let a dealer touch it
05-20-2018, 04:33 PM
#5539
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by visitador
From what I have been reading here, there is also a need to tune the software for the transmission, something that I remember no tuner is doing anything about it
05-21-2018, 03:21 PM
#5540
Rennlist Member
Just letting you guys know that I did the fix last week. Originally, I was going to wait (like PJ Cayenne) until next year and ride the pre-fix as late as possible. Right now, I can't quantify how I feel about the changes. It is a little bit different but not that much. My significant other did not feel any changes at all. Only time will tell.
However, I would like to share my thoughts of why I decided to do it now. Skiahh in prior messages have stated that he did feel his CD is performing worse (can't remember his exact words). This brought me to make some research. So here is the pertaining part of the settlement agreement that caught my attention:
Under 7 Other provisions, 7.1 reads "Incorporated Warranties. The Parties incorporate all warranties and Lemon provisions contained in the DOJ 3.0-liter Consent Decree as material terms of this 3.0 Litter Class Action Settlement."
So, I thought, what is that DOJ 3.0-liter Consent Decree? It is not in the court documents. Doing some online search, I finally found it in the EPA website (go figure). For our purposes, what interested me is this part:
"9.2 Warranty Remedies. In addition to any protections provided by law (including those referenced in Paragraph 9.3 below), Defendants must reoffer and provide a Buyback or Lease Termination to any Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee of a Modified Vehicle (or in the case of an Approved Emissions Modification that qualifies as an Emissions Compliant Recall, must offer a Buyback or Lease Termination in the first instance) in the event that, during the 18 months or 18,000 miles following the completion of the Approved Emissions Modification (the “Reoffer Period”), Defendants fail to repair or remedy a confirmed mechanical failure or malfunction covered by the Warranty and associated with the Approved Emissions Modification or Emissions Compliant Recall (a “Warrantable Failure”) after the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee physically presents the Modified Vehicle to a dealer for repair of the Warrantable Failure; and (1) the Warrantable Failure is unable to be remedied after making four separate service visits for the same Warrantable Failure during the Reoffer Period; or (2) the Modified Vehicle with the Warrantable Failure is out of service due to the Warrantable Failure for a cumulative total of 30 Days during the Reoffer Period. (For avoidance of doubt, a Modified Vehicle shall not be deemed “out of service” when, after diagnosing the Warrantable Failure, the dealer returns or tenders the Modified Vehicle to the customer while the dealer awaits necessary parts for the Warrantable Failure, and the Modified Vehicle remains Operable.) In such a case, the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee of an Eligible Vehicle receiving an Approved Emissions Modification shall receive the payments that he or she would have received under the Buyback or the Lease Termination at the time the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee first requested the Approved Emissions Modification less any payment amounts already received; or, in the case of an Emissions Compliant Recall, the Eligible Owner or elligible Lessee shall receive the payments that he or she would have been entitled to receive under Section VII of this Appendix A had a Final Notice of Disapproval been issued by EPA/CARB with respect to the proposed Emissions Compliant Recall, less any payment amounts already received. No Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee shall receive double-recovery of any portion of any payment. Defendants shall, as part of their reporting obligations in Paragraph 11.3 below, notify EPA/CARB and CA AG when any Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee participates in the Buyback or the Lease Termination under this Paragraph 9.2."
What does it all mean? Basically the settlement has it own lemon law. If after the fix, your CD is performing quite different than what the fix booklet says it would, then you have to take it back to the dealer to have it fixed. If it is a confirmed mechanical failure or malfunction, then the dealer has four tries to fix it. After that, VW is obligated to buy back your CD at the previously pre-determined value (the one if there was no fix available) minus what VW already paid you. VW has 18 months (or 18,000 miles) to do that. So, given that, I decided to do it now, rather than wait next year. If the fix turns out to be what the booklet says, then I had my money and move on. If it turns out to be terrible or out of wack, I'll try bringing it back to the dealer to have it confirmed as a mechanical failure or malfunction. After four tries, VW has to buy it back. This is something you won't see in the booklet or anyplace in the VW portal.
However, I would like to share my thoughts of why I decided to do it now. Skiahh in prior messages have stated that he did feel his CD is performing worse (can't remember his exact words). This brought me to make some research. So here is the pertaining part of the settlement agreement that caught my attention:
Under 7 Other provisions, 7.1 reads "Incorporated Warranties. The Parties incorporate all warranties and Lemon provisions contained in the DOJ 3.0-liter Consent Decree as material terms of this 3.0 Litter Class Action Settlement."
So, I thought, what is that DOJ 3.0-liter Consent Decree? It is not in the court documents. Doing some online search, I finally found it in the EPA website (go figure). For our purposes, what interested me is this part:
"9.2 Warranty Remedies. In addition to any protections provided by law (including those referenced in Paragraph 9.3 below), Defendants must reoffer and provide a Buyback or Lease Termination to any Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee of a Modified Vehicle (or in the case of an Approved Emissions Modification that qualifies as an Emissions Compliant Recall, must offer a Buyback or Lease Termination in the first instance) in the event that, during the 18 months or 18,000 miles following the completion of the Approved Emissions Modification (the “Reoffer Period”), Defendants fail to repair or remedy a confirmed mechanical failure or malfunction covered by the Warranty and associated with the Approved Emissions Modification or Emissions Compliant Recall (a “Warrantable Failure”) after the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee physically presents the Modified Vehicle to a dealer for repair of the Warrantable Failure; and (1) the Warrantable Failure is unable to be remedied after making four separate service visits for the same Warrantable Failure during the Reoffer Period; or (2) the Modified Vehicle with the Warrantable Failure is out of service due to the Warrantable Failure for a cumulative total of 30 Days during the Reoffer Period. (For avoidance of doubt, a Modified Vehicle shall not be deemed “out of service” when, after diagnosing the Warrantable Failure, the dealer returns or tenders the Modified Vehicle to the customer while the dealer awaits necessary parts for the Warrantable Failure, and the Modified Vehicle remains Operable.) In such a case, the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee of an Eligible Vehicle receiving an Approved Emissions Modification shall receive the payments that he or she would have received under the Buyback or the Lease Termination at the time the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee first requested the Approved Emissions Modification less any payment amounts already received; or, in the case of an Emissions Compliant Recall, the Eligible Owner or elligible Lessee shall receive the payments that he or she would have been entitled to receive under Section VII of this Appendix A had a Final Notice of Disapproval been issued by EPA/CARB with respect to the proposed Emissions Compliant Recall, less any payment amounts already received. No Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee shall receive double-recovery of any portion of any payment. Defendants shall, as part of their reporting obligations in Paragraph 11.3 below, notify EPA/CARB and CA AG when any Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee participates in the Buyback or the Lease Termination under this Paragraph 9.2."
What does it all mean? Basically the settlement has it own lemon law. If after the fix, your CD is performing quite different than what the fix booklet says it would, then you have to take it back to the dealer to have it fixed. If it is a confirmed mechanical failure or malfunction, then the dealer has four tries to fix it. After that, VW is obligated to buy back your CD at the previously pre-determined value (the one if there was no fix available) minus what VW already paid you. VW has 18 months (or 18,000 miles) to do that. So, given that, I decided to do it now, rather than wait next year. If the fix turns out to be what the booklet says, then I had my money and move on. If it turns out to be terrible or out of wack, I'll try bringing it back to the dealer to have it confirmed as a mechanical failure or malfunction. After four tries, VW has to buy it back. This is something you won't see in the booklet or anyplace in the VW portal.
05-22-2018, 12:40 AM
#5541
Rennlist Member
I can see them also trying to say it's in compliance with the fix, no matter what, and trying to stiff arm this.
I'm getting ready to take mine back for it's second attempt to make it "Porsche-like" again, rather than 300D like. My 7300# Cummins Ram has better acceleration!
I don't care about the 30 days out of service provision, since my dealer always gives me a new Porsche to use if it's in the shop for a while.
I'm getting ready to take mine back for it's second attempt to make it "Porsche-like" again, rather than 300D like. My 7300# Cummins Ram has better acceleration!
I don't care about the 30 days out of service provision, since my dealer always gives me a new Porsche to use if it's in the shop for a while.
05-22-2018, 12:08 PM
#5542
Thank you for the info. Mine is going back for its third check engine light since the fix and stumbling on acceleration not to mention the transmission sluggishness (38,000 miles and always use top tier Diesel)
05-24-2018, 02:11 AM
#5544
From vsitador's post "Defendants fail to repair or remedy a confirmed mechanical failure or malfunction covered by the Warranty and associated with the Approved Emissions Modification or Emissions Compliant Recall" -- Not being a lawyer is this an escape clause for the new software being the cause?
Also agree with Skiahh, "I can see them also trying to say it's in compliance with the fix, no matter what, and trying to stiff arm this."
-
We are still not convinced to get the fix as it is not reversible - a fully functioning & safe vehicle is more important than the small amount of money offered.
____________________________
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...meet-otis.html
Also agree with Skiahh, "I can see them also trying to say it's in compliance with the fix, no matter what, and trying to stiff arm this."
-
We are still not convinced to get the fix as it is not reversible - a fully functioning & safe vehicle is more important than the small amount of money offered.
____________________________
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...meet-otis.html
05-24-2018, 04:32 AM
#5545
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by RS-America
From vsitador's post "Defendants fail to repair or remedy a confirmed mechanical failure or malfunction covered by the Warranty and associated with the Approved Emissions Modification or Emissions Compliant Recall" -- Not being a lawyer is this an escape clause for the new software being the cause?
Also agree with Skiahh, "I can see them also trying to say it's in compliance with the fix, no matter what, and trying to stiff arm this."
-
We are still not convinced to get the fix as it is not reversible - a fully functioning & safe vehicle is more important than the small amount of money offered.
____________________________
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...meet-otis.html
Also agree with Skiahh, "I can see them also trying to say it's in compliance with the fix, no matter what, and trying to stiff arm this."
-
We are still not convinced to get the fix as it is not reversible - a fully functioning & safe vehicle is more important than the small amount of money offered.
____________________________
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...meet-otis.html
05-27-2018, 06:45 PM
#5546
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Ok, now we have it too.
The CD is my wife’s daily. She’s been complaining more and more often that in the stop and go traffic, rolling into the throttle at low speeds yields nothing until you boot it. She calls it “sluggish” and “erratic”. One, I have NOT told he that other people on the forum are experiencing this. Nor have I been pumping her for daily updates. We had the fix done around Christmastime so we have almost 6 months on the vehicle since then. Plenty of time to learn. I noticed it a little at the beginning but said nothing. She said she’s noticed it getting steadily worse.
I am not happy. The vehicle is paid off, and we were looking forward to a few years of it being pId for while we crept it toward 100k miles (at about 65k now). Ironically this type of behavior was the reason we traded in our 2011 535i after 2 and a half years. And we traded it on the CD. My wife, in particular, is heartbroken. She absolutely loves her Cayenne. It’s Umber over Umber / Tartufo and she loves the color combo. She loves the size, the way it drives, everything. But she’s growing steadily dissatisfied with how it drives. I’d say of the 65k miles, she has put on at least 50k of those. If not more.
Going to schedule it in with this as is as a complaint. My Service Advisor says there’s no new tune but perhaps maybe a reflash will help? Dunno. I want it documented before I go to PCNA.
Car works in Sport mode, but I hate the shifting behavior of the car in Sport.
Ive been tracking fuel usage, but need to put it in my spreadsheet. Suspect fuel economy has dropped quite a bit. Will let you know.
The CD is my wife’s daily. She’s been complaining more and more often that in the stop and go traffic, rolling into the throttle at low speeds yields nothing until you boot it. She calls it “sluggish” and “erratic”. One, I have NOT told he that other people on the forum are experiencing this. Nor have I been pumping her for daily updates. We had the fix done around Christmastime so we have almost 6 months on the vehicle since then. Plenty of time to learn. I noticed it a little at the beginning but said nothing. She said she’s noticed it getting steadily worse.
I am not happy. The vehicle is paid off, and we were looking forward to a few years of it being pId for while we crept it toward 100k miles (at about 65k now). Ironically this type of behavior was the reason we traded in our 2011 535i after 2 and a half years. And we traded it on the CD. My wife, in particular, is heartbroken. She absolutely loves her Cayenne. It’s Umber over Umber / Tartufo and she loves the color combo. She loves the size, the way it drives, everything. But she’s growing steadily dissatisfied with how it drives. I’d say of the 65k miles, she has put on at least 50k of those. If not more.
Going to schedule it in with this as is as a complaint. My Service Advisor says there’s no new tune but perhaps maybe a reflash will help? Dunno. I want it documented before I go to PCNA.
Car works in Sport mode, but I hate the shifting behavior of the car in Sport.
Ive been tracking fuel usage, but need to put it in my spreadsheet. Suspect fuel economy has dropped quite a bit. Will let you know.
05-28-2018, 02:32 AM
#5548
Rennlist Member
Drove my wife's 14 today. It's still a lot better than my 15. There's lag there, but when the power hits, it's not as... binary as the 15. The lag time is much less and much more predictable. The 15? It's getting a bit unnerving again when merging or in heavy traffic. Rolling up to a roundabout and trying to time getting on is difficult when the power doesn't come on predictably, and when it does, it's a big lurch forward.
Also, the 14 seems to choose the right gears and very quickly changes when necessary. Example. The 15 will shift down to 7th gear and hold it at 40 mph, showing about 1100 RPM. That's fine for a level street, but if it tilts up at all, it should quickly drop to 6 or even 5, but it doesn't. It lugs for quite some time before either I decide to do something about it or it figures out it's in too high a gear. The 14 holds 6th at 40 very nicely and as soon as either the road tilts up or I so much as twitch the pedal, drops to 5th.
Hers is going in probably this week for 40K service. Mine'll go in for the second time right after that.
Also, the 14 seems to choose the right gears and very quickly changes when necessary. Example. The 15 will shift down to 7th gear and hold it at 40 mph, showing about 1100 RPM. That's fine for a level street, but if it tilts up at all, it should quickly drop to 6 or even 5, but it doesn't. It lugs for quite some time before either I decide to do something about it or it figures out it's in too high a gear. The 14 holds 6th at 40 very nicely and as soon as either the road tilts up or I so much as twitch the pedal, drops to 5th.
Hers is going in probably this week for 40K service. Mine'll go in for the second time right after that.
05-28-2018, 07:57 AM
#5549
Instructor
Visitador, I read with interest your post about Porsche having to buy back your CD if isn’t fixed after 4 visits or 30 days, etc. I was not aware of that paragraph so nice work. Given my experience with Porsche, getting them to agree to a buyback might be practically impossible.
I have had an ongoing electrical problem with my CD for which I have photos and videos of many instances of the issue occurring. The hitch is, the electrical problem never threw any codes. Porsche USA had all the photos and videos yet they told me, in writing, that because there were no codes my CD was operating as designed and they would do nothing to fix my electrical problem. I find this incredible for a company that sold me a $75,000 vehicle. Some of these problems were discussed on this forum so you could click my username and I think you could see the posts.
So while you might prevail in a buyback eventually, the cost and emotional strain might not be worh it. Based on the now 65 responses to my survey where 43% report post-fix performance as noticeably negative and recent discussion with Porche service personnel, it is becoming less likely that I will ever get the fix. Good luck to you though and thanks for your post. Good info.
I have had an ongoing electrical problem with my CD for which I have photos and videos of many instances of the issue occurring. The hitch is, the electrical problem never threw any codes. Porsche USA had all the photos and videos yet they told me, in writing, that because there were no codes my CD was operating as designed and they would do nothing to fix my electrical problem. I find this incredible for a company that sold me a $75,000 vehicle. Some of these problems were discussed on this forum so you could click my username and I think you could see the posts.
So while you might prevail in a buyback eventually, the cost and emotional strain might not be worh it. Based on the now 65 responses to my survey where 43% report post-fix performance as noticeably negative and recent discussion with Porche service personnel, it is becoming less likely that I will ever get the fix. Good luck to you though and thanks for your post. Good info.
05-28-2018, 09:16 AM
#5550
Rennlist Member
Just a clarification, it is my understanding that the buyback process is through the settlement process. I assume you have to contact the settlement administrator through the VW settlement portal or call them. I don't think this is a program that POA is involved
Also, we still have "our lawyers" to help us. They have been paid a lot so let's use them. If VW makes it hard, let "our lawyers" convey the issues to the judge. The case is not closed until the judge says so
Also, we still have "our lawyers" to help us. They have been paid a lot so let's use them. If VW makes it hard, let "our lawyers" convey the issues to the judge. The case is not closed until the judge says so