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- 2014 CD, less than 15k miles, got emission fix in Jan 2018
- After fix, very noticeable 2-3 sec lag from the stop. Feels unsafe at times, not sure if the car will decide to go, eventually, or not
- Waited until May 2018 to see if situation improves. It did not
- Took the car to local dealer. Dealer tested, told that this is "typical" for post-fix, but updated software to make customer happy
- After software update the lag seems a bit better, 2sec; still pretty bad
- I consider this situation "the car is broken". Subjective, of course. This is not the car I purchased in 2014. I would not have purchased it if it test drove like that
- Called PCNA, their first response was "your pamphlet stated that after fix performance will change", "what you describe is performance as designed". Can't blame them for trying
- After talking a bit longer, PCNA agreed to give a case number and investigate
- Waiting for PCNA response, not holding my breath, preparing for my next steps as this car is not meeting my safety and stress-free driving needs in its current condition
Please PM me if you have suggestions. I saw what Skiahh said a few posts above, sounds like a good plan (thank you, Skiahh!)
- 2014 CD, less than 15k miles, got emission fix in Jan 2018
- After fix, very noticeable 2-3 sec lag from the stop. Feels unsafe at times, not sure if the car will decide to go, eventually, or not
- Waited until May 2018 to see if situation improves. It did not
- Took the car to local dealer. Dealer tested, told that this is "typical" for post-fix, but updated software to make customer happy
- After software update the lag seems a bit better, 2sec; still pretty bad
- I consider this situation "the car is broken". Subjective, of course. This is not the car I purchased in 2014. I would not have purchased it if it test drove like that
- Called PCNA, their first response was "your pamphlet stated that after fix performance will change", "what you describe is performance as designed". Can't blame them for trying
- After talking a bit longer, PCNA agreed to give a case number and investigate
- Waiting for PCNA response, not holding my breath, preparing for my next steps as this car is not meeting my safety and stress-free driving needs in its current condition
Please PM me if you have suggestions. I saw what Skiahh said a few posts above, sounds like a good plan (thank you, Skiahh!)
Just remember, from what vistador told us, you have to give them 4 shots at fixing it. And each one, they will - legitimately, I suppose - ask you to run a few tanks of fuel through it to let it relearn and settle in before re-evaluating. I'm on my 2nd or 3rd tank right now, so will be going back soon for attempt #2; after we get the 40K service done on the '14.
The '14 has a bit of lag, too. Less than the '15, but I can't honestly say if it's noticeably worse post-fix. Either way, it's much more predictable, so I don't feel any safety issue there.
And for the record, I want them to fix it. I don't want to have a buyback.
^^^ it is four tries for an acknowledged mechanical failure. If PCA says the lag is what the booklet allows, then I don't know what else to say. Option is to communicate with our attorneys and express the view that the lag makes the CD unsafe on public roads. Also maybe file complaints with the National Highway Safety agency about the CD being unsafe.
Interesting discussion here.
We bought a 2015 Cayenne Diesel in January 2018. It was a dealer demo and part of the "hold" during diesel gate. It now has 17,5xx miles, basically brand new.
I test drove the car and noticed some turbo lag but nothing obnoxious. The car is my wife's and she drives it 90% of the time. After driving the car for a few weeks she commented on the "lag", especially when accelerating from a low speed and "tipping-in" to the throttle. I drove it for a bit and made a few observations:
1) transmission is always in to high of a gear at speeds below about 40 mph,
2) you have to heavily tip-in the throttle to get transmission to kick down. I don't have data but I am guessing it is above 75% throttle
3) some of the worst turbo-lag I have ever experienced at low vehicle speeds. The "time to torque" at high throttle positions is horrible for a even a diesel.
4) combined with the transmission in the wrong gear (to high gear for vehicle speed and throttle position), high throttle to get a "kick-down", turbo lag creates situations at low speed when accelerating (think intersection where you roll through at about 5mph and then want to accelerate into traffic) that is annoyingly slow if not outright dangerous.
5) once boost builds, transmission kicks-down one or two gears then the vehicle moves but this happen 2, even 3, seconds after you begin to tip-in to the throttle.
I find it dangerous, annoying, and it needs to be fixed. If this is the "fix" and this is the character of the vehicle after a few months of ownership then I don't think I want it.
I have contacted dealer service and we'll see what they say. I'm not confident.
Otherwise it's a nice vehicle. Comfortable. Handles decently for a mid-size SUV. Fuel mileage is good relative to other similar sized vehicles. Unfortunately it may not stay in my fleet for very long with this poor low-speed tip-in performance.
This is my first Cayenne but not my first Porsche. I have had some bad experiences in the past with VW/Audi products and I hope I am not having another bad experience.
Yes, we can use the "manual mode" to put the transmission in a lower gear. But that is annoying, frankly, and does not solve the epic turbo-lag at low speed or the slow response time of the transmission, in general, to kick-down even with a "manual" command.
I'll keep reading this thread. It will be very informative and I'll post if my experience going forward.
Last edited by jhott66; 06-01-2018 at 11:19 AM.
Reason: edit grammar
Sorry to hear about all the negative experience with VW. Getting the vast majority of people to agree to a fix without long-term testing was a sly move on VW's part. In fact, they had the settlement deadline before there was even a fix. Quite simply, this is not the car we originally bought, even if it is within 1% variance of it's original spec but the cash for the settlement is supposed to make up for it. Sadly, I believe if you've accepted the cash and thus the class action settlement, I believe your only option is to complain to class counsel. If you're interested in what's going on with those outside the settlement go to the San Francisco Superior Court website, and search Volkswagen Automobile Emissions. It's just getting started.
Spent some time chatting with the service advisor this morning when I picked it up. Below are the comments on the service ticket.
In other words.... it is what it is. No codes, "operating within parameters."
It's getting annoying for sure... but at the same time... I still wouldn't trade it in, as what would I trade it for? A V6 gas? Blech. An "S" or "Turbo"? Ok maybe - but I drive 35k a year and gas would KILL me.
I'll have to learn to live with it. My complaint has been noted in my file, and my SA is good, if there are updates released, she will let me know.
Interesting discussion here.
We bought a 2015 Cayenne Diesel in January 2018. It was a dealer demo and part of the "hold" during diesel gate. It now has 17,5xx miles, basically brand new.
I test drove the car and noticed some turbo lag but nothing obnoxious. The car is my wife's and she drives it 90% of the time. After driving the car for a few weeks she commented on the "lag", especially when accelerating from a low speed and "tipping-in" to the throttle. I drove it for a bit and made a few observations:
1) transmission is always in to high of a gear at speeds below about 40 mph,
2) you have to heavily tip-in the throttle to get transmission to kick down. I don't have data but I am guessing it is above 75% throttle
3) some of the worst turbo-lag I have ever experienced at low vehicle speeds. The "time to torque" at high throttle positions is horrible for a even a diesel.
4) combined with the transmission in the wrong gear (to high gear for vehicle speed and throttle position), high throttle to get a "kick-down", turbo lag creates situations at low speed when accelerating (think intersection where you roll through at about 5mph and then want to accelerate into traffic) that is annoyingly slow if not outright dangerous.
5) once boost builds, transmission kicks-down one or two gears then the vehicle moves but this happen 2, even 3, seconds after you begin to tip-in to the throttle.
I find it dangerous, annoying, and it needs to be fixed. If this is the "fix" and this is the character of the vehicle after a few months of ownership then I don't think I want it.
I have contacted dealer service and we'll see what they say. I'm not confident.
Otherwise it's a nice vehicle. Comfortable. Handles decently for a mid-size SUV. Fuel mileage is good relative to other similar sized vehicles. Unfortunately it may not stay in my fleet for very long with this poor low-speed tip-in performance.
This is my first Cayenne but not my first Porsche. I have had some bad experiences in the past with VW/Audi products and I hope I am not having another bad experience.
Yes, we can use the "manual mode" to put the transmission in a lower gear. But that is annoying, frankly, and does not solve the epic turbo-lag at low speed or the slow response time of the transmission, in general, to kick-down even with a "manual" command.
I'll keep reading this thread. It will be very informative and I'll post if my experience going forward.
And don't forget the considerable engine lugging. No wonder that had to offer a 10 year engine warranty; this fix will wind up killing these engines with the lugging as you tool around at 40 mph in 7th gear and it refusing to downshift until it's about to stall out.
Originally Posted by OmniGLH
Spent some time chatting with the service advisor this morning when I picked it up. Below are the comments on the service ticket.
In other words.... it is what it is. No codes, "operating within parameters."
It's getting annoying for sure... but at the same time... I still wouldn't trade it in, as what would I trade it for? A V6 gas? Blech. An "S" or "Turbo"? Ok maybe - but I drive 35k a year and gas would KILL me.
I'll have to learn to live with it. My complaint has been noted in my file, and my SA is good, if there are updates released, she will let me know.
That sounds like a dismissal designed to prevent you taking it in four times to get fixed. If the "booklet" says this is within the acceptable "driveability" definitions, we're in trouble and our class counsel hosed us.
Since I bought my '15 already fixed (based on how the fix seemed to work on our '14), I have to wonder if they're going to say I knew what I was getting into. It certainly does not drive like it did on the couple of test drives I took. And it doesn't drive like our '14. This could get interesting.
And don't forget the considerable engine lugging. No wonder that had to offer a 10 year engine warranty; this fix will wind up killing these engines with the lugging as you tool around at 40 mph in 7th gear and it refusing to downshift until it's about to stall out.
That sounds like a dismissal designed to prevent you taking it in four times to get fixed. If the "booklet" says this is within the acceptable "driveability" definitions, we're in trouble and our class counsel hosed us.
Since I bought my '15 already fixed (based on how the fix seemed to work on our '14), I have to wonder if they're going to say I knew what I was getting into. It certainly does not drive like it did on the couple of test drives I took. And it doesn't drive like our '14. This could get interesting.
Well what I find interesting is that it wasn't like this when I bought it (also already fixed.)
My 2014 definitely wasn't like this. Really... post-fix, once fully warmed up, my 2014 felt no different than it did pre-fix. When I brought this 2015 home it drove exactly like my fixed 2014 did that I'd traded in.
OK, we all know what the booklet describing the changes said:
Originally Posted by Fix information booklet
The new software will affect your car in the following ways:
•Engine sound may differ somewhat from your vehicle’s prior operation.There might be a difference in combustion noise from the engine that maybe noticeable during vehicle warm-up. The potential change in sound will not result in any noticeable changes to the driving characteristics of your vehicle.
•Shift Patterns – The shifting behavior has been adapted to run withslightly higher engine speeds during vehicle warm-up and when drivingat high altitudes.
•Downhill Driving – Removal of the enhanced automatic engine brakingfeature may require drivers to apply more brake pedal in downhill driving.
•In Sport mode, some drivers might notice less dynamic shifting behavior.
The Settlement requires Porsche to provide this disclosure and give customers/purchasers, "... a clear and accurate written disclosure as approved in the sole discretion of the EPA and CARB (the “Approved Emissions Modification Disclosure”) regarding the impacts of any Approved Emissions Modification on an Eligible Vehicle." (Para 7.3)
It also says:
Originally Posted by Settlement Agreement para 7.3
As described more fully in Appendix B to the DOJ 3.0-liter Consent Decree, the Approved Emissions Modification Disclosure will describe in plain language: (1) the Approved Emissions Modification generally; (2) all software changes; (3) all hardware changes; (4) a clear explanation of each subsequent service action required by the Approved Emissions Modification, if any; (5) any and all reasonably predictable changes resulting from the Approved Emissions Modification, including but not limited to changes to reliability, durability, fuel economy, noise vibration, vehicle performance, drivability and any other vehicle attributes that may reasonably be important to vehicle owners;
And:
Originally Posted by Settlement Agreement para 7.5
7.5. Reduced Performance. Defendants represent that the Emissions Compliant Repair shall not result in “Reduced Performance.” In the event that the Emissions Compliant Repair causes Reduced Performance of the Eligble Vehicle, Volkswagen shall make an additional payment of $500 for each affected Eligible Vehicle. For purposes of this section, Reduced Performance means a change in any of the following performance attributes: (1) a reduction in calculated fuel economy using the EPA formula of more than 3 MPG; (2) a decrease of greater than 5% in peak horsepower; or (3) a decrease of greater than 5% in peak torque. The performance impacts shall be measured by Volkswagen pursuant to industry standards in connection with its submission of an Emissions Modification Proposal to the EPA and CARB, and, upon final approval of such Emissions Modification Proposal, Defendants shall disclose any impact to these performance attributes in the VW Class Update pursuant to paragraph 2.96 of the 3.0-liter Class Action Settlement. In the event that the Emissions Compliant Repair causes a substantial, material adverse degradation above and beyond the Reduced Performance levels specified above, Plaintiffs reserve their right to seek, and Defendants reserve their right to oppose, additional remedies through motion to the Court.
(Emphasis added)
And, the DOJ definition of "Drivability" is:
Originally Posted by DOJ Agreement Appendix B
2.21 “Drivability” means the smooth delivery of power, as demanded by the driver or operator. Typical elements of Drivability degradation are rough idling, misfiring, surging, increased hesitation, or insufficient power.
(Emphasis added)
And:
Originally Posted by DOJ Agreement Appendinx B
4.3.8 A description of any and all reasonably predictable changes, adverse or otherwise, on vehicle attributes which may reasonably be important to vehicle owners, including: fuel economy, reliability, durability, Noise Vibration and Harshness, vehicle performance (for example, 0-60 mph time, top speed, etc.), and drivability, including transmission shifting characteristics.
(Emphasis added)
I think the booklet pretty much tells us that there will be more noise, different shift patterns, that performance isn't impacted and that mileage may drop slightly. OK, fair enough.
It does not, however, talk about drivability, harshness (on/off nature of boost/surging), increased hesitation (dead pedal, severe turbo lag) and seeming insufficient power, as a result of the lag, hesitation and "dead pedal" feel.
If they can't fix this, I think they're not in compliance with the settlement nor are they apparently in compliance with the notification requirements, since these changes are pretty damn material in impact and smooth delivery of power. These are "attributes that [are] reasonably be important to vehicle owners [me and many of you!]", so while it might be a fight, I think there's enough there to either force them to come up with a fix or... worse.
(Note: I'm not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. I'm just reading the documentation and drawing conclusions that, to me, seem logical)
- 2014 CD, less than 15k miles, got emission fix in Jan 2018
- I consider this situation "the car is broken". Subjective, of course. This is not the car I purchased in 2014. I would not have purchased it if it test drove like that)
This is the sole reason they should have done a buyback. Just a shame CD drivers went from delighted to unhappy.
Well what I find interesting is that it wasn't like this when I bought it (also already fixed.)
My 2014 definitely wasn't like this. Really... post-fix, once fully warmed up, my 2014 felt no different than it did pre-fix. When I brought this 2015 home it drove exactly like my fixed 2014 did that I'd traded in.
Our 2014 has zero issues when it was first tuned. That was back in January.
Its been getting steadily worse over the last 3 months.
Anyone running a Blue Spark tune on a fixed CD? PM me if you don’t want to reply.
Thanks.
Last edited by Needsdecaf; 06-02-2018 at 01:11 PM.
Spent some time chatting with the service advisor this morning when I picked it up. Below are the comments on the service ticket.
In other words.... it is what it is. No codes, "operating within parameters."
It's getting annoying for sure... but at the same time... I still wouldn't trade it in, as what would I trade it for? A V6 gas? Blech. An "S" or "Turbo"? Ok maybe - but I drive 35k a year and gas would KILL me.
I'll have to learn to live with it. My complaint has been noted in my file, and my SA is good, if there are updates released, she will let me know.
This is so shady, I am glad I didn't take mine in yet. I am still waiting for my second payment from Bosch...
06-01-2018, 04:46 AM
