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09-21-2022 | 01:44 AM
#2327
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 741
Likes: 367
From: midwest
you’re linking to some internet lawyer who someone probably paid $50 to get an answer .
people read what they want to read . Practically speaking dealers will refund but legally whether they have to , when they have to , how much they have to is an entirely different thing .
high end cars have deposits in the $500k range …. Those types (and I’m one of them ) go through proper channnels to understand how it works and don’t rely on quorum postings and googling .
people read what they want to read . Practically speaking dealers will refund but legally whether they have to , when they have to , how much they have to is an entirely different thing .
high end cars have deposits in the $500k range …. Those types (and I’m one of them ) go through proper channnels to understand how it works and don’t rely on quorum postings and googling .
If you’re trying to argue for some obscure scenario where the deposit is structured in a creative way to circumvent the CVC, that’s a different story, and that can be legally challenged as well. However 99% of the time, CA dealers will return deposits no questions asked. In fact, you can even order a car, wait for it to arrive, sign the purchase agreement and all the paperwork in the finance office, hand them a check, etc and until you actually drive said car off the lot, you can change your mind and tell them to pound sand(yes, even on a brand new car) and they have to unwind the deal and return your deposit, check, etc.
btw … nice flex on the $500k deposit on a “high end” car that you allegedly pay routinely.
Last edited by lawrence1; 09-21-2022 at 01:45 AM.
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09-21-2022 | 08:39 AM
#2328
Nordschleife Master
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 5,304
Likes: 2,100
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09-21-2022 | 11:01 AM
#2329
Racer
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 445
Likes: 218
you’re clueless. Welikethetrack has it right. CA dealers refund deposits because they are legally obligated to do so, or risk disciplinary action from the CA DMV, and/or they can be easily sued and they know they can’t win.
If you’re trying to argue for some obscure scenario where the deposit is structured in a creative way to circumvent the CVC, that’s a different story, and that can be legally challenged as well. However 99% of the time, CA dealers will return deposits no questions asked. In fact, you can even order a car, wait for it to arrive, sign the purchase agreement and all the paperwork in the finance office, hand them a check, etc and until you actually drive said car off the lot, you can change your mind and tell them to pound sand(yes, even on a brand new car) and they have to unwind the deal and return your deposit, check, etc.
btw … nice flex on the $500k deposit on a “high end” car that you allegedly pay routinely.
If you’re trying to argue for some obscure scenario where the deposit is structured in a creative way to circumvent the CVC, that’s a different story, and that can be legally challenged as well. However 99% of the time, CA dealers will return deposits no questions asked. In fact, you can even order a car, wait for it to arrive, sign the purchase agreement and all the paperwork in the finance office, hand them a check, etc and until you actually drive said car off the lot, you can change your mind and tell them to pound sand(yes, even on a brand new car) and they have to unwind the deal and return your deposit, check, etc.
btw … nice flex on the $500k deposit on a “high end” car that you allegedly pay routinely.
The reason they are not breaking the law and requesting deposits (sometimes in the 50% range) is that 11736 and 11738 applies to cars that one is buying through a broker (who doesn't own the car and is acting as a middle man).
But you guys carry on and you won't find in the DMV code a scenario of deposit refundabilty when there is no broker involved. I'll assume that they have specifically created this scenario for a reason and it is only if you are buying a car this way... The part that you are missing in 11736 is the word "brokering" and 11738. Make sure you tell your dealer that what they are doing is illegal by even taking deposits and not providing the form with the exact wording that is required in these sections and that you REFUSE to even give them a deposit more then 2.5% or you will report them to the DMV investigators.
Since everyone is into googling...
https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/...cle_code_11736
California Vehicle Code 11736 – It is unlawful for any dealer licensed under this article to do any …
Current as of: 2021 | Check for updates | Other versionsIt is unlawful for any dealer licensed under this article to do any of the following when brokering a retail sale:(a) Fail to execute a written brokering agreement, as described in Section 11738, and provide a completed copy to both of the following:
Terms Used In California Vehicle Code 11736
- Brokering: is a n arrangement under which a dealer, for a fee or other consideration, regardless of the form or time of payment, provides or offers to provide the service of arranging, negotiating, assisting, or effectuating the purchase of a new or used motor vehicle, not owned by the dealer, for another or others. See California Vehicle Code 232.5
- Dealer: is a person not otherwise expressly excluded by Section 286 who:
California Vehicle Code 285 - motor vehicle: includes a recreational vehicle as that term is defined in subdivision (a) of Section 18010 of the Health and Safety Code, but does not include a truck camper. See California Vehicle Code 415
- retail sale: is a sale of goods to a person for the purpose of consumption and use, and not for resale to others, including, but not limited to, an arrangement where a motor vehicle is consigned to a dealer for sale. See California Vehicle Code 520
- vehicle: is a device by which any person or property may be propelled, moved, or drawn upon a highway, excepting a device moved exclusively by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks. See California Vehicle Code 670
(1) Any consumer entering into the brokering agreement. The completed copy shall be provided prior to the consumer’s signing of an agreement for the purchase of the vehicle described in the brokering agreement or, prior to accepting one hundred dollars ($100) or more from that consumer, whichever occurs first.
(2) The selling dealer. The completed copy shall be provided prior to the selling dealer’s entering into a purchase agreement with the consumer.
(b) Accept a purchase deposit from any consumer that exceeds 2.5 percent of the selling price of the vehicle described in the brokering agreement.
(c) Fail to refund any purchase money, including purchase deposits, upon demand by a consumer at any time prior to the consumer’s signing of a vehicle purchase agreement with a selling dealer and taking delivery of the vehicle described in the brokering agreement.
(d) Fail to cancel a brokering agreement and refund, upon demand, any money paid by a consumer, including any brokerage fee, under any of the following circumstances:
(1) When the final price of the brokered vehicle exceeds the purchase price listed in the brokering agreement.
(2) When the vehicle delivered is not as described in the brokering agreement.
(3) When the brokering agreement expires prior to the customer being presented with a purchase agreement from a selling dealer arranged through the brokering dealer that contains a purchase price at or below the price listed in the brokering agreement.
(e) Act as a seller and provide brokering services, both in the same transaction.
(f) Fail to disclose to the consumer and selling dealer, as soon as practicable, whether the autobroker receives or does not receive a fee or other compensation, regardless of the form or time of payment, from the selling dealer and the dollar amount of any fee that the consumer is obligated to pay to the autobroker. This arrangement shall be confirmed in a brokering agreement.
(g) Fail to record in the dealer’s autobroker log, for each brokered sale, all of the information specified in subdivision (c) of Section 11735.
(h) Fail to maintain for a minimum of three years a copy of the executed brokering agreement and other notices and documents related to each brokered transaction.
(i) Fail to advise the consumer, prior to accepting any money, that a full refund will be given if the motor vehicle ordered through the autobroker is not obtained for the consumer or if the service orally contracted for is not provided.
(Amended by Stats. 1995, Ch. 211, Sec. 8. Effective January 1, 1996.)
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09-21-2022 | 01:24 PM
#2331
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 741
Likes: 367
From: midwest
Man, I wonder why EVERY porsche/mclaren/ferrari/lamborghini/aston martin and any other dealer really is blatantly breaking the law by taking deposits for cars that don't even exist yet, not providing deposit forms (interest deposits or otherwise) that meet the exact wording of 11736 and 11738. We should all report them for taking deposits more then 2.5% (what about $3,750 for a GT4rs).
The reason they are not breaking the law and requesting deposits (sometimes in the 50% range) is that 11736 and 11738 applies to cars that one is buying through a broker (who doesn't own the car and is acting as a middle man).
But you guys carry on and you won't find in the DMV code a scenario of deposit refundabilty when there is no broker involved. I'll assume that they have specifically created this scenario for a reason and it is only if you are buying a car this way... The part that you are missing in 11736 is the word "brokering" and 11738. Make sure you tell your dealer that what they are doing is illegal by even taking deposits and not providing the form with the exact wording that is required in these sections and that you REFUSE to even give them a deposit more then 2.5% or you will report them to the DMV investigators.
Since everyone is into googling...
https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/...cle_code_11736
(a) Fail to execute a written brokering agreement, as described in Section 11738, and provide a completed copy to both of the following:
(1) Any consumer entering into the brokering agreement. The completed copy shall be provided prior to the consumer’s signing of an agreement for the purchase of the vehicle described in the brokering agreement or, prior to accepting one hundred dollars ($100) or more from that consumer, whichever occurs first.
(2) The selling dealer. The completed copy shall be provided prior to the selling dealer’s entering into a purchase agreement with the consumer.
(b) Accept a purchase deposit from any consumer that exceeds 2.5 percent of the selling price of the vehicle described in the brokering agreement.
(c) Fail to refund any purchase money, including purchase deposits, upon demand by a consumer at any time prior to the consumer’s signing of a vehicle purchase agreement with a selling dealer and taking delivery of the vehicle described in the brokering agreement.
(d) Fail to cancel a brokering agreement and refund, upon demand, any money paid by a consumer, including any brokerage fee, under any of the following circumstances:
(1) When the final price of the brokered vehicle exceeds the purchase price listed in the brokering agreement.
(2) When the vehicle delivered is not as described in the brokering agreement.
(3) When the brokering agreement expires prior to the customer being presented with a purchase agreement from a selling dealer arranged through the brokering dealer that contains a purchase price at or below the price listed in the brokering agreement.
(e) Act as a seller and provide brokering services, both in the same transaction.
(f) Fail to disclose to the consumer and selling dealer, as soon as practicable, whether the autobroker receives or does not receive a fee or other compensation, regardless of the form or time of payment, from the selling dealer and the dollar amount of any fee that the consumer is obligated to pay to the autobroker. This arrangement shall be confirmed in a brokering agreement.
(g) Fail to record in the dealer’s autobroker log, for each brokered sale, all of the information specified in subdivision (c) of Section 11735.
(h) Fail to maintain for a minimum of three years a copy of the executed brokering agreement and other notices and documents related to each brokered transaction.
(i) Fail to advise the consumer, prior to accepting any money, that a full refund will be given if the motor vehicle ordered through the autobroker is not obtained for the consumer or if the service orally contracted for is not provided.
(Amended by Stats. 1995, Ch. 211, Sec. 8. Effective January 1, 1996.)
Previous section
Next section
The reason they are not breaking the law and requesting deposits (sometimes in the 50% range) is that 11736 and 11738 applies to cars that one is buying through a broker (who doesn't own the car and is acting as a middle man).
But you guys carry on and you won't find in the DMV code a scenario of deposit refundabilty when there is no broker involved. I'll assume that they have specifically created this scenario for a reason and it is only if you are buying a car this way... The part that you are missing in 11736 is the word "brokering" and 11738. Make sure you tell your dealer that what they are doing is illegal by even taking deposits and not providing the form with the exact wording that is required in these sections and that you REFUSE to even give them a deposit more then 2.5% or you will report them to the DMV investigators.
Since everyone is into googling...
https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/...cle_code_11736
California Vehicle Code 11736 – It is unlawful for any dealer licensed under this article to do any …
Current as of: 2021 | Check for updates | Other versionsIt is unlawful for any dealer licensed under this article to do any of the following when brokering a retail sale:(a) Fail to execute a written brokering agreement, as described in Section 11738, and provide a completed copy to both of the following:
Terms Used In California Vehicle Code 11736
- Brokering: is a n arrangement under which a dealer, for a fee or other consideration, regardless of the form or time of payment, provides or offers to provide the service of arranging, negotiating, assisting, or effectuating the purchase of a new or used motor vehicle, not owned by the dealer, for another or others. See California Vehicle Code 232.5
- Dealer: is a person not otherwise expressly excluded by Section 286 who:
California Vehicle Code 285 - motor vehicle: includes a recreational vehicle as that term is defined in subdivision (a) of Section 18010 of the Health and Safety Code, but does not include a truck camper. See California Vehicle Code 415
- retail sale: is a sale of goods to a person for the purpose of consumption and use, and not for resale to others, including, but not limited to, an arrangement where a motor vehicle is consigned to a dealer for sale. See California Vehicle Code 520
- vehicle: is a device by which any person or property may be propelled, moved, or drawn upon a highway, excepting a device moved exclusively by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks. See California Vehicle Code 670
(1) Any consumer entering into the brokering agreement. The completed copy shall be provided prior to the consumer’s signing of an agreement for the purchase of the vehicle described in the brokering agreement or, prior to accepting one hundred dollars ($100) or more from that consumer, whichever occurs first.
(2) The selling dealer. The completed copy shall be provided prior to the selling dealer’s entering into a purchase agreement with the consumer.
(b) Accept a purchase deposit from any consumer that exceeds 2.5 percent of the selling price of the vehicle described in the brokering agreement.
(c) Fail to refund any purchase money, including purchase deposits, upon demand by a consumer at any time prior to the consumer’s signing of a vehicle purchase agreement with a selling dealer and taking delivery of the vehicle described in the brokering agreement.
(d) Fail to cancel a brokering agreement and refund, upon demand, any money paid by a consumer, including any brokerage fee, under any of the following circumstances:
(1) When the final price of the brokered vehicle exceeds the purchase price listed in the brokering agreement.
(2) When the vehicle delivered is not as described in the brokering agreement.
(3) When the brokering agreement expires prior to the customer being presented with a purchase agreement from a selling dealer arranged through the brokering dealer that contains a purchase price at or below the price listed in the brokering agreement.
(e) Act as a seller and provide brokering services, both in the same transaction.
(f) Fail to disclose to the consumer and selling dealer, as soon as practicable, whether the autobroker receives or does not receive a fee or other compensation, regardless of the form or time of payment, from the selling dealer and the dollar amount of any fee that the consumer is obligated to pay to the autobroker. This arrangement shall be confirmed in a brokering agreement.
(g) Fail to record in the dealer’s autobroker log, for each brokered sale, all of the information specified in subdivision (c) of Section 11735.
(h) Fail to maintain for a minimum of three years a copy of the executed brokering agreement and other notices and documents related to each brokered transaction.
(i) Fail to advise the consumer, prior to accepting any money, that a full refund will be given if the motor vehicle ordered through the autobroker is not obtained for the consumer or if the service orally contracted for is not provided.
(Amended by Stats. 1995, Ch. 211, Sec. 8. Effective January 1, 1996.)
Previous section
Next section
The statute that applies is the CA Automobile Sales Finance Act, particularly California Civil Code section 2982.7. Don't be a smooth brain - EVERY dealer in CA knows about this, they just won't come out and tell you because they don't want people ordering cars and not taking delivery. Any deposit is fully refundable up until you drive the car off the lot in CA. period. end of story.
And there is no 2.5% cap - a dealer can ask whatever they want as a deposit. Most dealers don't even cash deposit checks for this very reason. They'll take the check and hold on to it, but many times they won't even cash it. If it's a large amount, they may cash it knowing they'll need to refund it if the deal falls through but they get to float the money in the meantime.
09-21-2022 | 01:34 PM
#2332
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 741
Likes: 367
From: midwest
Reality is starting to set in. Particularly for dealers holding multiple 991.2 GT3 (Touring) copies - max pain incoming there. Some dealers are asking nearly $275k for these things still, when most are trading in the low $200s. Some outliers exist but those are usually ultra low mileage, PTS, and superb specs. And we're moving into winter season ...
09-21-2022 | 01:55 PM
#2333
Nordschleife Master
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 5,304
Likes: 2,100
I’ve never paid a deposit on any order Porsche or any other luxury car. Dealers don’t ask everyone for them that’s a fact. Just finished 18 holes and this debate is entertaining by the way. J
Last edited by Maverick787; 09-21-2022 at 02:22 PM.
09-21-2022 | 02:47 PM
#2334
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 17,294
Likes: 12,206
This is turning into absolute comedy.
The statute that applies is the CA Automobile Sales Finance Act, particularly California Civil Code section 2982.7. Don't be a smooth brain - EVERY dealer in CA knows about this, they just won't come out and tell you because they don't want people ordering cars and not taking delivery. Any deposit is fully refundable up until you drive the car off the lot in CA. period. end of story.
And there is no 2.5% cap - a dealer can ask whatever they want as a deposit. Most dealers don't even cash deposit checks for this very reason. They'll take the check and hold on to it, but many times they won't even cash it. If it's a large amount, they may cash it knowing they'll need to refund it if the deal falls through but they get to float the money in the meantime.
The statute that applies is the CA Automobile Sales Finance Act, particularly California Civil Code section 2982.7. Don't be a smooth brain - EVERY dealer in CA knows about this, they just won't come out and tell you because they don't want people ordering cars and not taking delivery. Any deposit is fully refundable up until you drive the car off the lot in CA. period. end of story.
And there is no 2.5% cap - a dealer can ask whatever they want as a deposit. Most dealers don't even cash deposit checks for this very reason. They'll take the check and hold on to it, but many times they won't even cash it. If it's a large amount, they may cash it knowing they'll need to refund it if the deal falls through but they get to float the money in the meantime.
Can we now put an end to this discussion (it doesn't even rise to an argument b/c an argument actually has a factual basis to it).
In CA any "deposit" is fully refundable until you take delivery and drive it "over the curb." Anyone that tells you otherwise is either (1) lying or (2) ignorant or (3) both.
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WCGhost (09-22-2022)
09-21-2022 | 03:57 PM
#2335
Race Car
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,178
Likes: 2,306
From: California
Reality is starting to set in. Particularly for dealers holding multiple 991.2 GT3 (Touring) copies - max pain incoming there. Some dealers are asking nearly $275k for these things still, when most are trading in the low $200s. Some outliers exist but those are usually ultra low mileage, PTS, and superb specs. And we're moving into winter season ...
Last edited by Diablo Dude; 09-21-2022 at 03:58 PM.
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NYCGT3 (09-21-2022)
09-21-2022 | 04:46 PM
#2336
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,702
Likes: 224
From: North of 6,000 RPM
A standard (in fact free) color yellow 991.2 Touring just sold on BaT for $237K w buyers premium. It had 8K miles on it to boot, so I'd say market is still strong.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...gt3-touring-9/
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Diablo Dude (09-21-2022)
09-21-2022 | 04:49 PM
#2337
Race Car
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,178
Likes: 2,306
From: California
He was referring to 991.2 Tourings, not 992.
A standard (in fact free) color yellow 991.2 Touring just sold on BaT for $237K w buyers premium. It had 8K miles on it to boot, so I'd say market is still strong.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...gt3-touring-9/
A standard (in fact free) color yellow 991.2 Touring just sold on BaT for $237K w buyers premium. It had 8K miles on it to boot, so I'd say market is still strong.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...gt3-touring-9/
$186,000 sticker
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azzurri (09-22-2022)
09-21-2022 | 05:59 PM
#2340
Race Car
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,178
Likes: 2,306
From: California
2 GTS and 2 GT3's
2018 / 2022
Used Cars for Sale | Used Car Dealer Beachwood, OH | Porsche Beachwood
Last edited by Diablo Dude; 09-21-2022 at 08:38 PM.