GT3 Dealer Allocation Thread
04-03-2017, 07:00 PM
#1008
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by neanicu
The drama is real. Take a deep breath folks.
Spend too much time on Rennlist and 30K over is starting to make sense. I recommend yoga.
Spend too much time on Rennlist and 30K over is starting to make sense. I recommend yoga.
04-03-2017, 07:10 PM
#1009
Race Director
Originally Posted by orthojoe
Totally agree. Rennlist is partly to blame for the 'acceptance' of greedy dealers
04-03-2017, 07:12 PM
#1010
Race Director
I understand your concern, but unfortunately there isn't a solution to this. I know every time a new GT model comes out, people will try to speculate and argue over the same thing again. The only way to really solve the problem is if Porsche double or triples the GT car production, or Porsche raises the MSRP by 50-70k$.
I would love to buy a limited Ferrari like F12 TDF, Speciale, LaFerrari even tho I've put my name and deposit down 10 years ago. I would love to go see Mayweather's boxing match floor seats at MSRP $1000 since I've put myself on a list instead of $5000. I would love to buy Romanee Conti current release Burgundy at MSRP instead of 13k$ per bottle. I also wanted to own a part of snapchat at their IPO at snapchat's and bank's suggested IPO market price. Unfortunately I also got denied for these lists even if I put myself on a list. Its really happening in many different industries. Like you, I love those brands and the product they provide and only want to pay MSRP but market forces prevail.
Lets say if PCNA sends a decree that all dealers cannot sell any car over MSRP, then a few things would happen. In the case if dealers don't take a physical list, there will still be a list. There's always a list because a dealer is not going to get 50 cars in half year, but more like 2-6 cars, and I am sure the GM or GSM of a dealer can at least remember 2-6 important people in their heads, whether consciously or unconsciously. So when the car comes, they will literally just pick and choose 2-6 people that they want to sell to. If a dealer does take a list and Porsche also says you have to go down the list in order, then the list will be crazy. If I know the next 911R 10 years from now they are going to make only 911 units, I would put a deposit now, especially since its refundable. What you'll end up getting is the more wealthy people can literally put 15k deposit on every single GT car for the next 30 years. Why not? If I had the money I would. You'll be 40-100 people on every list for cars 5-10 years out. Only the people who can afford to put deposits for 5-10 years on multiple cars will end up getting them. The market will prevail because doesn't matter who buys it at MSRP, there will always be people who be willing to pay over, since you can't pay over, the used car prices of cars "brand new" will be over sticker, so why would you not guarantee a spot 5 years from now that'll be worth 50-70k over MSRP. Sure some cars will be worth only 10-20k more, but it'll be worth more regardless.
Some people are luckier than others no doubt. You can say people in the Midwest are luckier than people in California because its much higher chance of buying cars at MSRP. What about the rest of the world to California? Are you all luckier than people in China, Singapore, whose MSRP of GT3 is 310k USD? Its the same exact car right? Do you feel they're obligated to pay more because they have double the salary? Not quite. They are simply located in a different geographic location just like Midwest people are located in a different geographic location than California. Again, century old argument, what is MSRP? suggested retail price. Do you feel more comfortable buying a 310k MSRP GT3 in China than to pay 30k over 150k GT3 in US because you are buying at the MSRP? Lets say, hypothetically, Porsche lists GT3 at 180k MSRP, would you buy it at MSRP? What about 199k? What about 240k? At what point would you say, I rather pay over on a low MSRP car than pay higher MSRP? Now lets reverse the roll, What if PCNA starts lowering the MSRP? at 110k GT3, would you pay 30k over? No? What about 90k? 60k? At what point would you pay 30k over for a GT3? Never?
You may say the MSRP is logical and Porsche designed the car to be meant to be sold at that price, but I'm sorry it realty isn't. PCNA and PAG sets the price of the car from the marketing department. There is no bigger marketing force than to create a huge hype and letting tens of thousands of fans hook onto it and always want a glimmer of hope of getting one. The pricing is strategic, corporations do it all the time, I rather make 30k less profit per car, but to me 30k X 2000 cars I make is actually a pretty cheap marketing cost for creating this enormous hype, and I just write it off on the marketing department. They are unfortunately letting the dealers become to the culprit. If you feed a pack of wolves with only a piece of meat, they will fight for it and they will be greedy, its nature. Porsche can increase the MSRP of GT cars by 70k, and the market and demand will be more balanced out, but now people will say now PAG is the vampire and greedy company, so best to let someone else take the fall. For the same reason of the hype, they will not build twice or three times as many GT cars. Can they build another GT department factory? yes. Can they hire another GT department team? yes. The hype of the pinnacle GT cars are passed down to other models. I've seen too many people settle for Carrera GTS, Carrera S, or Cayman GTS because they couldn't get the GT cars, and wins for Porsche.
Just some food for thoughts!
I would love to buy a limited Ferrari like F12 TDF, Speciale, LaFerrari even tho I've put my name and deposit down 10 years ago. I would love to go see Mayweather's boxing match floor seats at MSRP $1000 since I've put myself on a list instead of $5000. I would love to buy Romanee Conti current release Burgundy at MSRP instead of 13k$ per bottle. I also wanted to own a part of snapchat at their IPO at snapchat's and bank's suggested IPO market price. Unfortunately I also got denied for these lists even if I put myself on a list. Its really happening in many different industries. Like you, I love those brands and the product they provide and only want to pay MSRP but market forces prevail.
Lets say if PCNA sends a decree that all dealers cannot sell any car over MSRP, then a few things would happen. In the case if dealers don't take a physical list, there will still be a list. There's always a list because a dealer is not going to get 50 cars in half year, but more like 2-6 cars, and I am sure the GM or GSM of a dealer can at least remember 2-6 important people in their heads, whether consciously or unconsciously. So when the car comes, they will literally just pick and choose 2-6 people that they want to sell to. If a dealer does take a list and Porsche also says you have to go down the list in order, then the list will be crazy. If I know the next 911R 10 years from now they are going to make only 911 units, I would put a deposit now, especially since its refundable. What you'll end up getting is the more wealthy people can literally put 15k deposit on every single GT car for the next 30 years. Why not? If I had the money I would. You'll be 40-100 people on every list for cars 5-10 years out. Only the people who can afford to put deposits for 5-10 years on multiple cars will end up getting them. The market will prevail because doesn't matter who buys it at MSRP, there will always be people who be willing to pay over, since you can't pay over, the used car prices of cars "brand new" will be over sticker, so why would you not guarantee a spot 5 years from now that'll be worth 50-70k over MSRP. Sure some cars will be worth only 10-20k more, but it'll be worth more regardless.
Some people are luckier than others no doubt. You can say people in the Midwest are luckier than people in California because its much higher chance of buying cars at MSRP. What about the rest of the world to California? Are you all luckier than people in China, Singapore, whose MSRP of GT3 is 310k USD? Its the same exact car right? Do you feel they're obligated to pay more because they have double the salary? Not quite. They are simply located in a different geographic location just like Midwest people are located in a different geographic location than California. Again, century old argument, what is MSRP? suggested retail price. Do you feel more comfortable buying a 310k MSRP GT3 in China than to pay 30k over 150k GT3 in US because you are buying at the MSRP? Lets say, hypothetically, Porsche lists GT3 at 180k MSRP, would you buy it at MSRP? What about 199k? What about 240k? At what point would you say, I rather pay over on a low MSRP car than pay higher MSRP? Now lets reverse the roll, What if PCNA starts lowering the MSRP? at 110k GT3, would you pay 30k over? No? What about 90k? 60k? At what point would you pay 30k over for a GT3? Never?
You may say the MSRP is logical and Porsche designed the car to be meant to be sold at that price, but I'm sorry it realty isn't. PCNA and PAG sets the price of the car from the marketing department. There is no bigger marketing force than to create a huge hype and letting tens of thousands of fans hook onto it and always want a glimmer of hope of getting one. The pricing is strategic, corporations do it all the time, I rather make 30k less profit per car, but to me 30k X 2000 cars I make is actually a pretty cheap marketing cost for creating this enormous hype, and I just write it off on the marketing department. They are unfortunately letting the dealers become to the culprit. If you feed a pack of wolves with only a piece of meat, they will fight for it and they will be greedy, its nature. Porsche can increase the MSRP of GT cars by 70k, and the market and demand will be more balanced out, but now people will say now PAG is the vampire and greedy company, so best to let someone else take the fall. For the same reason of the hype, they will not build twice or three times as many GT cars. Can they build another GT department factory? yes. Can they hire another GT department team? yes. The hype of the pinnacle GT cars are passed down to other models. I've seen too many people settle for Carrera GTS, Carrera S, or Cayman GTS because they couldn't get the GT cars, and wins for Porsche.
Just some food for thoughts!
04-03-2017, 07:21 PM
#1011
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I understand your concern, but unfortunately there isn't a solution to this. I know every time a new GT model comes out, people will try to speculate and argue over the same thing again. The only way to really solve the problem is if Porsche double or triples the GT car production, or Porsche raises the MSRP by 50-70k$.
I would love to buy a limited Ferrari like F12 TDF, Speciale, LaFerrari even tho I've put my name and deposit down 10 years ago. I would love to go see Mayweather's boxing match floor seats at MSRP $1000 since I've put myself on a list instead of $5000. I would love to buy Romanee Conti current release Burgundy at MSRP instead of 13k$ per bottle. I also wanted to own a part of snapchat at their IPO at snapchat's and bank's suggested IPO market price. Unfortunately I also got denied for these lists even if I put myself on a list. Its really happening in many different industries. Like you, I love those brands and the product they provide and only want to pay MSRP but market forces prevail.
Lets say if PCNA sends a decree that all dealers cannot sell any car over MSRP, then a few things would happen. In the case if dealers don't take a physical list, there will still be a list. There's always a list because a dealer is not going to get 50 cars in half year, but more like 2-6 cars, and I am sure the GM or GSM of a dealer can at least remember 2-6 important people in their heads, whether consciously or unconsciously. So when the car comes, they will literally just pick and choose 2-6 people that they want to sell to. If a dealer does take a list and Porsche also says you have to go down the list in order, then the list will be crazy. If I know the next 911R 10 years from now they are going to make only 911 units, I would put a deposit now, especially since its refundable. What you'll end up getting is the more wealthy people can literally put 15k deposit on every single GT car for the next 30 years. Why not? If I had the money I would. You'll be 40-100 people on every list for cars 5-10 years out. Only the people who can afford to put deposits for 5-10 years on multiple cars will end up getting them. The market will prevail because doesn't matter who buys it at MSRP, there will always be people who be willing to pay over, since you can't pay over, the used car prices of cars "brand new" will be over sticker, so why would you not guarantee a spot 5 years from now that'll be worth 50-70k over MSRP. Sure some cars will be worth only 10-20k more, but it'll be worth more regardless.
Some people are luckier than others no doubt. You can say people in the Midwest are luckier than people in California because its much higher chance of buying cars at MSRP. What about the rest of the world to California? Are you all luckier than people in China, Singapore, whose MSRP of GT3 is 310k USD? Its the same exact car right? Do you feel they're obligated to pay more because they have double the salary? Not quite. They are simply located in a different geographic location just like Midwest people are located in a different geographic location than California. Again, century old argument, what is MSRP? suggested retail price. Do you feel more comfortable buying a 310k MSRP GT3 in China than to pay 30k over 150k GT3 in US because you are buying at the MSRP? Lets say, hypothetically, Porsche lists GT3 at 180k MSRP, would you buy it at MSRP? What about 199k? What about 240k? At what point would you say, I rather pay over on a low MSRP car than pay higher MSRP? Now lets reverse the roll, What if PCNA starts lowering the MSRP? at 110k GT3, would you pay 30k over? No? What about 90k? 60k? At what point would you pay 30k over for a GT3? Never?
You may say the MSRP is logical and Porsche designed the car to be meant to be sold at that price, but I'm sorry it realty isn't. PCNA and PAG sets the price of the car from the marketing department. There is no bigger marketing force than to create a huge hype and letting tens of thousands of fans hook onto it and always want a glimmer of hope of getting one. The pricing is strategic, corporations do it all the time, I rather make 30k less profit per car, but to me 30k X 2000 cars I make is actually a pretty cheap marketing cost for creating this enormous hype, and I just write it off on the marketing department. They are unfortunately letting the dealers become to the culprit. If you feed a pack of wolves with only a piece of meat, they will fight for it and they will be greedy, its nature. Porsche can increase the MSRP of GT cars by 70k, and the market and demand will be more balanced out, but now people will say now PAG is the vampire and greedy company, so best to let someone else take the fall. For the same reason of the hype, they will not build twice or three times as many GT cars. Can they build another GT department factory? yes. Can they hire another GT department team? yes. The hype of the pinnacle GT cars are passed down to other models. I've seen too many people settle for Carrera GTS, Carrera S, or Cayman GTS because they couldn't get the GT cars, and wins for Porsche.
Just some food for thoughts!
I would love to buy a limited Ferrari like F12 TDF, Speciale, LaFerrari even tho I've put my name and deposit down 10 years ago. I would love to go see Mayweather's boxing match floor seats at MSRP $1000 since I've put myself on a list instead of $5000. I would love to buy Romanee Conti current release Burgundy at MSRP instead of 13k$ per bottle. I also wanted to own a part of snapchat at their IPO at snapchat's and bank's suggested IPO market price. Unfortunately I also got denied for these lists even if I put myself on a list. Its really happening in many different industries. Like you, I love those brands and the product they provide and only want to pay MSRP but market forces prevail.
Lets say if PCNA sends a decree that all dealers cannot sell any car over MSRP, then a few things would happen. In the case if dealers don't take a physical list, there will still be a list. There's always a list because a dealer is not going to get 50 cars in half year, but more like 2-6 cars, and I am sure the GM or GSM of a dealer can at least remember 2-6 important people in their heads, whether consciously or unconsciously. So when the car comes, they will literally just pick and choose 2-6 people that they want to sell to. If a dealer does take a list and Porsche also says you have to go down the list in order, then the list will be crazy. If I know the next 911R 10 years from now they are going to make only 911 units, I would put a deposit now, especially since its refundable. What you'll end up getting is the more wealthy people can literally put 15k deposit on every single GT car for the next 30 years. Why not? If I had the money I would. You'll be 40-100 people on every list for cars 5-10 years out. Only the people who can afford to put deposits for 5-10 years on multiple cars will end up getting them. The market will prevail because doesn't matter who buys it at MSRP, there will always be people who be willing to pay over, since you can't pay over, the used car prices of cars "brand new" will be over sticker, so why would you not guarantee a spot 5 years from now that'll be worth 50-70k over MSRP. Sure some cars will be worth only 10-20k more, but it'll be worth more regardless.
Some people are luckier than others no doubt. You can say people in the Midwest are luckier than people in California because its much higher chance of buying cars at MSRP. What about the rest of the world to California? Are you all luckier than people in China, Singapore, whose MSRP of GT3 is 310k USD? Its the same exact car right? Do you feel they're obligated to pay more because they have double the salary? Not quite. They are simply located in a different geographic location just like Midwest people are located in a different geographic location than California. Again, century old argument, what is MSRP? suggested retail price. Do you feel more comfortable buying a 310k MSRP GT3 in China than to pay 30k over 150k GT3 in US because you are buying at the MSRP? Lets say, hypothetically, Porsche lists GT3 at 180k MSRP, would you buy it at MSRP? What about 199k? What about 240k? At what point would you say, I rather pay over on a low MSRP car than pay higher MSRP? Now lets reverse the roll, What if PCNA starts lowering the MSRP? at 110k GT3, would you pay 30k over? No? What about 90k? 60k? At what point would you pay 30k over for a GT3? Never?
You may say the MSRP is logical and Porsche designed the car to be meant to be sold at that price, but I'm sorry it realty isn't. PCNA and PAG sets the price of the car from the marketing department. There is no bigger marketing force than to create a huge hype and letting tens of thousands of fans hook onto it and always want a glimmer of hope of getting one. The pricing is strategic, corporations do it all the time, I rather make 30k less profit per car, but to me 30k X 2000 cars I make is actually a pretty cheap marketing cost for creating this enormous hype, and I just write it off on the marketing department. They are unfortunately letting the dealers become to the culprit. If you feed a pack of wolves with only a piece of meat, they will fight for it and they will be greedy, its nature. Porsche can increase the MSRP of GT cars by 70k, and the market and demand will be more balanced out, but now people will say now PAG is the vampire and greedy company, so best to let someone else take the fall. For the same reason of the hype, they will not build twice or three times as many GT cars. Can they build another GT department factory? yes. Can they hire another GT department team? yes. The hype of the pinnacle GT cars are passed down to other models. I've seen too many people settle for Carrera GTS, Carrera S, or Cayman GTS because they couldn't get the GT cars, and wins for Porsche.
Just some food for thoughts!
04-03-2017, 07:23 PM
#1012
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
That being said, I will not pay over for a non-PTS GT3 period, end of story. I know I'll get a car, but it might not be till late 2018 or 2019 and I'm fine with that. 
04-03-2017, 07:24 PM
#1013
Rennlist Member
Again, century old argument, what is MSRP? suggested retail price. Do you feel more comfortable buying a 310k MSRP GT3 in China than to pay 30k over 150k GT3 in US because you are buying at the MSRP? Lets say, hypothetically, Porsche lists GT3 at 180k MSRP, would you buy it at MSRP? What about 199k? What about 240k? At what point would you say, I rather pay over on a low MSRP car than pay higher MSRP? Now lets reverse the roll, What if PCNA starts lowering the MSRP? at 110k GT3, would you pay 30k over? No? What about 90k? 60k? At what point would you pay 30k over for a GT3? Never?
It's absurd that PAG who designs and actually BUILDS a car earns a $15k profit on it while a dealer who merely sells it (as if a GT car needs someone to sell it, right?) earns a $30-70k profit. Who needs dealers these days anyway? They are as useful as "full commission stock brokerages" (from the 80's) are today. If a franchise wants to offer warranty service to PAG cars they can just do that.
But I'm sure there are state dealer lobbies and licencing laws that would make sure that this never happens. Tesla got to taste some of those.
Last edited by hf1; 04-03-2017 at 07:44 PM.
04-03-2017, 07:57 PM
#1014
Banned
Second mention of Tesla. Be careful what you ask for. The Tesla model while it controls the price on the top and would keep dealers (or the manufacturer) from charging over MSRP, you also can't get a car for under MSRP. Try walking into a Tesla dealer and negotiate the retail price, doesn't happen.
04-03-2017, 08:03 PM
#1015
Oh boy this can be a big debate....didn't I mention my lack of head space?
Obviously not "free", we pay in taxes but much less than our friends to the south. Most of the western world thinks its the right way.
Short comings, for sure but generellay better, yes.
Obviously not "free", we pay in taxes but much less than our friends to the south. Most of the western world thinks its the right way.
Short comings, for sure but generellay better, yes.
04-03-2017, 08:05 PM
#1016
Rennlist Member
Second mention of Tesla. Be careful what you ask for. The Tesla model while it controls the price on the top and would keep dealers (or the manufacturer) from charging over MSRP, you also can't get a car for under MSRP. Try walking into a Tesla dealer and negotiate the retail price, doesn't happen.
I wasn't suggesting that PAG should do what Tesla does. Tesla doesn't sell allocations at auctions either. I only mentioned it in the context of its battles it has encountered as a direct seller with states and dealer lobbies nationwide.
04-03-2017, 08:08 PM
#1017
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by goin2drt
Second mention of Tesla. Be careful what you ask for. The Tesla model while it controls the price on the top and would keep dealers (or the manufacturer) from charging over MSRP, you also can't get a car for under MSRP. Try walking into a Tesla dealer and negotiate the retail price, doesn't happen.
04-03-2017, 08:12 PM
#1018
Race Director
You guys ever read this??
^^^ see ... been going on a LONG time
http://www.autonews.com/article/2006...%3A-no-contest
^^^ see ... been going on a LONG time
http://www.autonews.com/article/2006...%3A-no-contest
04-03-2017, 08:15 PM
#1019
Race Director
04-03-2017, 08:17 PM
#1020
Race Car
Ferrari seems to be able to control their dealers from selling over MSRP at least when I was buying them. If a dealer sold a new car above MSRP he would lose an allocation.
The bargain for the dealer is he decides who he wants to sell the car to. More often than not, it is to repeat customers who are turning in their used Ferrari typically with low mileage. To get into the program, a new buyer would have to buy a used Ferrari which typically is listed above market value/MSRP.
The bargain for the dealer is he decides who he wants to sell the car to. More often than not, it is to repeat customers who are turning in their used Ferrari typically with low mileage. To get into the program, a new buyer would have to buy a used Ferrari which typically is listed above market value/MSRP.