Maxem

Doug's red car has Endless ME22 pads at each corner. I only ran them once at Puke. Very strong. Looking forward to seeing how long they last to justify the $800 ticket.

Looking back at my notes, the Pagid RS 4-2 Blues lasted only 4 track days in a total of about 3000k's and were then toast at their half worn stage which seems to be typical for Pagids.

Macca

Thanks Pete. This is the type of real world experience that's very useful. We can all speculate but real world experience speaks louder.

Padgid RS29 are the choice of most track day junkies on the RL boards. The yellows will definitely squeal and I suspect thats the trade off for lonegivity - but its a race car after all!

Im happy with my choice to experiment where you left off with the MX72. It sounds in practice that there is little difference in expected life between these and the ME20.

I have now got 6 track days and a 5 day Targa Tour + 20,000 road kms under my belt and have to confess that although I chose to replace my factory pads front and rear for the SITT (as a security measure) I have probably now only run through a single complete set of factory pads in all that usage! Out of interest with the 993 factory calipers the front and rears wore fairly evenly. I have never experienced fad and I have experienced little difference between the standard brake fluid and SFR

So this leads me to two conclusions. Assuming Im not at the back of the field "driving miss daisy" in each of those 6 track days - then I can contribute pad longevity to three factors:

1). Design. The 993 brake system is obviously an improvement on the 964 system with larger discs/pad area and "drilled"s rotors

2). My front brake ducting system is doing a good job of keeping my front pad/disc/fluid temps under control and as its heat that destroys all three of these then this is very useful. I also removed teh brake backing plates some years ago which assists with ventilation.

3). I am using the gearbox to brake the car more than I should and not using the brakes to peel of the initial few 10th a second of speed. Not good for the gearbox. Not cheap either. Lesson here, brakes cheaper than synchros! I will amend my braking strategy coming down from high speed straights and will abandon heel & toe (sounds cool but rev matching under these circumstances can obviously have expensive consequences over time by increasing the oil temps in the box and causing premature wear).

I have plenty of time to analysis my driving technique between track days. I watch my videos and look at my Vbox traces. I formulate a new strategy, strengthen weakest links and hope that leads to an improvement on track.

I was very lucky to beable to land a full set of new Big Red calipers brake system (993TT fronts and 993RS rear) and discs, wires and squeal stars + bolts from the USA for just over $4K NZ landed. Some favours were pulled (and thanks to someone on here for helping me transport these). Pads via endless were an additional $900 approx. So for $5K landed and taxed it seemed a no brainer. Mostly because my existing discs were end of life, my pads were worn and the delta buying these items locally (discs are cheaper offshore but very expensive to freight) made it compelling to upgrade the whole lot - swept pad area is 40% increased, disc size around 10% and obviously Endless pads have benefits over factory road pads. The only negative I can see is increased weight (10kg I think all up). The upside is I shouldnt need discs/pads or a caliper piston seal rebuild for a long time.

Im pretty certain having watched and talked to the 964 owners on here over the years that the difference between the 964 times at HD and the 993 times (if you try and remove driver and compare as close to similar spec as possible - I estimate 2's per lap out of the box like for like) is down to two things. Suspension and brakes. The rear suspension design of the 993 is 993 is a factor although I dont believe it accounts for as much as the marketing guys made out back in the day. It probably helps more on transitions. Once you start hauling *** I think the 993 brake system is a real improvement and will save some time on the track.

If the 964 crew want to go 1.18s I think they need to look ultimately at brakes and suspension. I would follow that by weight...

Ridgeline911

I have Pagid Yellows RS29 in the road car, and they are a bit squealy.. At every onramp , I feel like people are wondering why i don't fix my brakes!

I run Pagid Blacks RS14 in the track car and they are outstanding. They are very consistent and very strong stopping. I did get new discs and pads and spent some time bedding both in and have been rewarded with a system Pad/Disc that works for my application. They seem to be a bit prone to deposit transfer

I'm interested in a pad like the RS14, that might not deposit crap on the disc as easily...

kiwi 911

Pete,

What are your thoughts on 214's - are they quicker / better than 221's??

floatingkiwi

Interesting that not many of us are using PFC pad compounds? Only me and matt G?

Ridgeline911

I've heard some good things about PFC 01 compound, what are you running? and for what application?

John McM

It's all too hard Matt. It's like going to the beer section in the supermarket. Too much selection and a subjective opinion on most brands. I still haven't got a handle on the next step up. Not too worried about squealing as I will change fronts out each time I put on track wheels. Not difficult. What I absolutely hate is brake shudder. I have none with the Brembo but I think they are under done for the track work I'm now doing.

Macca

John. Brake shudder generally a function of pad deposits. Dave had some real world experience with this issue as did Pete so steer away from their previous choices (Pagid?). So far Sean and Pete have had some extensive use with Endless products and apart from longevity in the heat of battle no deposit issues I am aware of. There is always a trade off. Perhaps its longevity for pad transfer...

Paul. I think its pretty widely accepted the Z214s you had on your C3 are a good 1.0s+ faster a lap at HD than the Z221s. I know from talking with Steve and Paul they both hold this POV. However as you have previously pointed out the Z214 may be dot rated but on the street, especially in wet conditions/standing water its going to be far more liability than a Z221. Why don't you buy your next set as Z214 and bring the 993 into 1.15.xx territory for us 993 owners please!

peterC2S

Yep - definitely faster. By how much, very hard to make an accurate comparison as the 944 has to run 235/255 221s in soft compound and 245 all round in 214 medium compound - a bit of and apples and oranges comparison as I'm sure turn in is helped by the bigger tyre up front. Was certainly the case at Puke where I ran both sets and it was very noticeable on the back chicane where it was a lot easier to set up on the right hand side after the right turn in.

At HD my best previous time was a 17.5 on 221s and I ran a 17.1 on Sun on the 214's and with a 993 in the way around the slower corners

Too many variables for me to say but I reckon a 0.5 second difference at least - and bear in mind that I'm still a newbie really.

Macca

Great stuff Pete.

Paul. Were you on a cool down lap or something LOL?

Macca

....or was it just 7/10ths as I see you put in a 1.17.xxx....

peterC2S

He had bits falling off his car...!

Macca

That was a air brake wasn't it? That 993 thought it had made it to leisurely retirement after the second owner racer sold it.....then Mr 7/10ths multiple Macca Cup award winner came along and bought it!

peterC2S

What I can tell you is a) duct tape was involved and b) Paul's spend to speed ratio is pretty impressive (compared to a certain midnight blue variant...)

KiwiSean

I'd like to get some 214s in 18 to try out but not sure they have 18s in NZ. I didn't like the feel of them in 17s versus the 221s in 18. Too much movement in the sidewall and felt like I lost a lot of feel. They might be .5 sec faster, max, I'll dig out the testing times Steve and I did.

Never had any problems with ME20 fade or shudder over sprint distances. Haven't used that compound for anything beyond 10 laps or 15km stages though.

EDIT- the times are no good for real comparison. We had soft 221s and medium 214s. 214s were .2 sec faster on Steve's time. I went faster on the 221 than the 214. I suspect gap would be more on like for like compound.