964X33

Crikey, it was only a matter of time before the 993 elitism came out... but I'll bite and wave my *****.
I see the Nordschleife lap records have a 3.3 Turbo at 8:08. I note the 993C2 is at 8:28.
But that isn't a challenge!

O2GO

No, not quite. I was on his tail for a whole lap and he was holding me up so I passed early on the straight after the midfield corners but he didnt take his foot off and I ended up completing the pass to close to the corner at the end of the straight and didnt want to brake too hard and get rear ended all resulting in not making the corner and coming off the track. It was unnecessary and I was pretty frustrated at the lack of eticate. But at least with Racing Ray with me we covered how to handle the pass and hard break with bad lines into the corner if I got caught like that again in future.

Macca

Yip. I've been patiently waiting over seven years since being #2 post on this thread to trash 964's and show my true colours...LOL

IMHO no one on this board, (that Ive witnessed driving first hand), is a Driving God. For someone who is, Im sure the 964 3.3 would be consistently faster on all surface condition's around the Ring than a 993 C2. Power to weight. That's why we call them driving gods after all....for the rest of us on a short tight NZ style track Id imagine a decently set up 993 would be as quick or quicker....


P.S. Hard to believe that 64-3.3T time of 8.08 which beats the Porsche 993TT, 993 GT2 and Modena 360 around the Ring. Not sure who Best Motoring are but they must have one hell of a Driving God on their team. Maybe Sport Auto need that guy to work for them!

964X33

Well put. The times aren't exactly scientific. Then again it is still hard to believe Bellof's time around there but then he certainly sits in Olympus.

But what is really exciting about the Turbo for me is the sheer insanity of the power deliver. Not so much throttle as switch. As St Exupery said "The machine does not isolate man from the great problems of nature but plunges him more deeply into them". The quote suits the turbo nicely me thinks.

Macca

There is alot of debate on the web that the 964 3.3 Ring time is credible at all. For 1991, 320 bhp and 1470 kg there are many that say its impossible if the car was in standard trim. The revered 993 GT2 in 430 bhp and 1470kg factory trim is good for "only" 8.09s and Ferrari 360 at 1400kg and 400 bhp for the same. On many forums German guys who are regular at the Ring say they can consistently out run their contemporaries in 964 3.3T in their 964RS - a car which was more than a dozen seconds slower on the Ring times list. Its a shame there isnt a SportAuto of factory time for the 3.3 or 3.6T as these are more credible and would clear up the issue...

Stefans time of just over 6 minutes, was truly heroic in the 620 bhp 956 - but then Stefan himself was killed a few years later in a similar machine trying to shave a few tenths of a second of a lap for which he was famous. Its incredible to think that today a street production car such as the 918 is now under 7 minutes on a street legal tyre....

The turbo's power delivery is indeed addictive. I have driven 3.3T and 993TT and although I find them exciting on the road, that very "switch like" nature you mention, I find the reason they are not so suited to the track where NA linear throttle to power modulation allows more adjust ability and predictability especially if the conditions are less than ideal. I also have a personal belief that unless the 3.3T is on upgraded or new suspension its going to be a liability on older factory shocks - they were fairly soft in their day and now well past there best. As a fast tarmac/targa style car I would find the 3.3T fun however in all but truly wet conditions. Those who have done any fast tarmac work with me know I'm more confident there than on the track and I don't like to hang around either way. I still maintain however that a fair chunk of the reason my car is putting in such quick laps first time out at Man/Taupo/HD is because of the suspension/tyre and geo settings. You cant push a car to the edge of your (meager) limit's if you don't have a predicable platform to lean on regardless of horsepower. Im afraid a 20 year+ old turbo platform on original shocks just wouldn't inspire confidence in this particular driver to push on and make anything significant by way of fastest lap times compared to say my 993 C2 or Daves well sorted 964 C2. Just one mans opinion of course....

964X33

Not sure I agree that the suspension was soft in its day, it's actually bloody hard, but the car would be transformed with modern suspension, lower ride height, sticky tyres and losing 150kg; but that can be said of just about every 20y/o car. It's a slippery slope but for now I just enjoy it as it is.

John McM

Just refitted the seats. Good grief it's a beautiful interior. Classic, as are the haunches and wheels. If the switch was working I'd be cruising around the Bays at 50km. It may have been mine for 12 years but I never get sick of it.

As for performance. It's a road car, although we all know there was a race IMSA car version. It is devastating on the road at 100km in third. No lag and it takes on long lines of traffic in one go. It is a grand tourer with attitude.

kiwi 911

John, you are not allowed to post pornographic images on this thread mate.

John McM

Red rag to a bull.

John McM

Better pic

John McM

Baby has a big a#$

Kiwi Carguy

I don't consider myself a driving God nor even a naturally gifted driver but I have done quite a few track days, had coaching from Stu Owers, Hugh Tunly, Jo McAndrew etc and not I'm not a shy driver and happy to push it.

On Manfield I got to low 1.20's in my 993 C2 with road tires (basically a road car). The 3.3T (running 1bar) a few seconds slower and that was me pushing it, tail out at times etc. The reality is the 3.3T is a lot harder to drive fast through the twisties. The 3.6T I imagine would be easier with less lag. The 3.3T you really have to think ahead and anticipate when the hairdrier is going to kick in. The turbo is what I call "a hairy mans machine" it really does require a brass set to drive fast. Throw in some wet weather and forget it... very sideways and I know from experience. Fun but not fast

A place like the Green Hell you would have to be fully committed and a skilled driver to pedal the 3.3T at pace and just watching a few quick YouTube clips you can see why. Remember the times set are by drivers much more skilled than most I imagine on this thread & they are very experienced in that track.

I like both cars and would choose both of them but for different jobs.

Lastly I've driven a high HP 996 GT2 at speed and thats a WHOLE nother level again!!

mjg

So much for water cooled reliability. Got a CEL on the way out to Piha, pulled the code with my OBD2 reader and found it was P0430 (catalyst system below efficiency, bank 2). Cleared it and went for a decent drive and it hasn't reappeared yet... but obviously the track days are taking their toll on the factory catalyst system. Time to start shopping for either a decat pipe or a full exhaust system!

Kiwi Carguy

I was in a group invited to Taupo (through Jon Pottinger @ Powerhaus) to "evaluate" the track before it was officially opened. The workman were still there doing work on the track etc. This was in its first configuration before I think the FIA (?) came to assess it and although I can't remember my times I did pull 235km down the back straight in the 3.3T and loved the technicality of the track.

Macca

I grew up out that way so know the roads well. Infact I cut my teeth on those Waitakere/Piha roads....

Sounds like a nice excuse to get some more sound from the GT3 Matt. Id look at a cat bypass system. One of the beauties of our under resourced compliance system is that you can run such a system. Otherwise its some 200 cell cats which could get pricey. Im sure the US 96.2 GT3 boys will have plenty of suggestions on systems you can use....

I have found the track sessions harder on my exhaust than any other component of my car. Its like the dyno. I split my 18 year old mufflers over 6+ hrs of Dyno tuning. The temperatures get ridiculous under hi rpm load in our exhaust systems and enough to kill an aging cat system...