Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
07-22-2015, 09:01 PM
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Pel, any car can be tracked, albeit the non Mezger engines are a lottery unless sorted out first. The question is what you want to get out of it?
Experience tells me that if you want to be lapping others rather than being lapped, then the best platform is one Porsche intended to be tracked as it will be closer to the end point. Relatively young cars help as well as wear and tear costs to put right.
The above sums up why my third Porsche, which was a clean slate purchase, was the R. I couild equally have gone with a GT3, but I would have had to accept an older car for the same price point.
That said, the very cheapest option is to drive what you have within its capabilities and enjoy yourself.
Experience tells me that if you want to be lapping others rather than being lapped, then the best platform is one Porsche intended to be tracked as it will be closer to the end point. Relatively young cars help as well as wear and tear costs to put right.
The above sums up why my third Porsche, which was a clean slate purchase, was the R. I couild equally have gone with a GT3, but I would have had to accept an older car for the same price point.
That said, the very cheapest option is to drive what you have within its capabilities and enjoy yourself.
07-22-2015, 09:10 PM
Burning Brakes
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I spent 4 months talking with the designer at JRZ in the USA (shocks were built in Japan) on their RS shocks prior to the PRO redesign (theywere working on it at the time but its development was very slow and came out 2 years after intended!).
They are a beautifully designed shock.
In the end the lack on NZ support and knowledge base on how to set these up and address any known issues pointed me back to the PSSS10 which were cheaper (wasnt a key consideration at the time I must admit) and much more a known quantity (about this time I was starting to learn the cost and headaches of being a guinea pig for 993 modifications!).
Im happy with the PSS10. They are a good road shock in NZ and so much better composed and less "crashy" than the HD with Mo30 springs I ran from 2005-2010 (found there way with my 996 GT3 hweels onto Asleys 993 which was sold to Tony M then crashed and now I think at Steve Rs).
If you are very serious about track work the Motons and RS Pros are definately the way to go. Seperate canisters with multi bumpand rebound settings minutely adjusted etc.
However you really need to be racing a 964/993 before that kind of 10K+ investment in shocks and dedication to setting up (ideally with geo guy at a the track for a few tests days) becomes viable IMO. Once you do Im sure they are good for 1s a lap at HD perfectly tuned. They would likely then be a total handful on any B road back road driving at pace you did and you will end up with a track only car. The PSS10 I must confess (and Im sure the KWV3 too) are the only reason I can still get some decent grip and complaince on Targa. Back off the sway bars to sift and set the shocks up on the softer side and they still work on teh roads. Ive no doubt you could get the Moton/RS PRO to do the same but lots of knowledge and playing around needed...
They are a beautifully designed shock.
In the end the lack on NZ support and knowledge base on how to set these up and address any known issues pointed me back to the PSSS10 which were cheaper (wasnt a key consideration at the time I must admit) and much more a known quantity (about this time I was starting to learn the cost and headaches of being a guinea pig for 993 modifications!).
Im happy with the PSS10. They are a good road shock in NZ and so much better composed and less "crashy" than the HD with Mo30 springs I ran from 2005-2010 (found there way with my 996 GT3 hweels onto Asleys 993 which was sold to Tony M then crashed and now I think at Steve Rs).
If you are very serious about track work the Motons and RS Pros are definately the way to go. Seperate canisters with multi bumpand rebound settings minutely adjusted etc.
However you really need to be racing a 964/993 before that kind of 10K+ investment in shocks and dedication to setting up (ideally with geo guy at a the track for a few tests days) becomes viable IMO. Once you do Im sure they are good for 1s a lap at HD perfectly tuned. They would likely then be a total handful on any B road back road driving at pace you did and you will end up with a track only car. The PSS10 I must confess (and Im sure the KWV3 too) are the only reason I can still get some decent grip and complaince on Targa. Back off the sway bars to sift and set the shocks up on the softer side and they still work on teh roads. Ive no doubt you could get the Moton/RS PRO to do the same but lots of knowledge and playing around needed...
Warwick - what do you want to achieve?
If you are after a raod car with casual track day set-up - do what Pete did (and replace all your suspension rubbers).
Doing anything more will cost you anther $10K (like Macca's says) to only go another second faster? - and there are other ways to get this.
Suspension tidy up, Pete's rims with 221's, 50-80 kg's out with JMc strip and racing buckets is 80% of the easy gains. The last 20% is DT. Anything beyond this, just go buy a faster car as the cash vs benefit gain is really small.
If you are after a raod car with casual track day set-up - do what Pete did (and replace all your suspension rubbers).
Doing anything more will cost you anther $10K (like Macca's says) to only go another second faster? - and there are other ways to get this.
Suspension tidy up, Pete's rims with 221's, 50-80 kg's out with JMc strip and racing buckets is 80% of the easy gains. The last 20% is DT. Anything beyond this, just go buy a faster car as the cash vs benefit gain is really small.
That said i could just rebuild the shocks to OEM at $200 a corner. Custom valving an option as well The current springs are unknown quantity though I can put them on a dyno to have the rates tested. All in all i want a stiff but roadable setup
I have a $75US C2 21mm sway bar (classic mod) on the way as soon as the its bushings come in. Along with Wevo's and a new trans mount. Jason had poly fitted to the front arms and my drop links and ball joints are in good nick. I'm hoping to do as much of the install myself as a can
07-22-2015, 09:16 PM
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07-22-2015, 09:32 PM
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They are fine for the track Warwick. You need to adjust the rears to close to full stiff and play with the fronts (dependant on whether you have LSD or not). With a 4WD car you should be able to dial out a little understeer keeping the fronts a tad soft but it will depend on the effects of the new roll bars you are fitting. Generally speaking the PSS10 are probably a bit softly sprung for An out and out track day or time attack car but the next step up with spring rates (think Bilstein cup car coil overs) will likely spoil the ride on the street. Paul has mirrored the same chassis spec as I have more or less (he has fixed beefier sway bars rather than adjustable and the factory rear control arms) so he can give you an overview. The evidence suggests they are suitable enough to get the 993 driven into the high 15s or low 16s if well peddled at HD. This track favours a slightly softer set up IMO so the PSS10 work fine here. IM assuming the KWV3 would be similar - they may even have slightly firmer spring rates which would be good. The only 964 that has successfully broken below mid 19s At HD in our group I'm aware of is Sean's ex Bridgestone "RS" but this is a stripper with full cage (stiff), Cup suspension, RS brakes And chipped engine running just under 1250kg in present configure (all times quotes above on Z221 or 214). There is no reason a 964 shouldn't be almost as quick as the 993 as the power to weight is roughly the same. However I don't think any of the 964 owners to date have tuned the suspension to its potential or perhaps are as committed at a time attack lap as Sean, Paul etc have been in the past.....
PEL. Paul brings up an interesting option and one I confess as a 911 snob I overlooked. A 944 ex race car like Pete has could be a viable track warrior with road legality for 40k or under well prepared....
PEL. Paul brings up an interesting option and one I confess as a 911 snob I overlooked. A 944 ex race car like Pete has could be a viable track warrior with road legality for 40k or under well prepared....
07-22-2015, 09:41 PM
Three Wheelin'
07-22-2015, 10:00 PM
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They are fine for the track Warwick. You need to adjust the rears to close to full stiff and play with the fronts (dependant on whether you have LSD or not). With a 4WD car you should be able to dial out a little understeer keeping the fronts a tad soft but it will depend on the effects of the new roll bars you are fitting. Generally speaking the PSS10 are probably a bit softly sprung for An out and out track day or time attack car but the next step up with spring rates (think Bilstein cup car coil overs) will likely spoil the ride on the street. Paul has mirrored the same chassis spec as I have more or less (he has fixed beefier sway bars rather than adjustable and the factory rear control arms) so he can give you an overview. The evidence suggests they are suitable enough to get the 993 driven into the high 15s or low 16s if well peddled at HD. This track favours a slightly softer set up IMO so the PSS10 work fine here. IM assuming the KWV3 would be similar - they may even have slightly firmer spring rates which would be good. The only 964 that has successfully broken below mid 19s At HD in our group I'm aware of is Sean's ex Bridgestone "RS" but this is a stripper with full cage (stiff), Cup suspension, RS brakes And chipped engine running just under 1250kg in present configure (all times quotes above on Z221 or 214). There is no reason a 964 shouldn't be almost as quick as the 993 as the power to weight is roughly the same. However I don't think any of the 964 owners to date have tuned the suspension to its potential or perhaps are as committed at a time attack lap as Sean, Paul etc have been in the past.....
07-22-2015, 10:00 PM
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07-22-2015, 10:05 PM
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There is no reason a 964 shouldn't be almost as quick as the 993 as the power to weight is roughly the same. However I don't think any of the 964 owners to date have tuned the suspension to its potential or perhaps are as committed at a time attack lap as Sean, Paul etc have been in the past....
07-22-2015, 10:11 PM
Rennlist Member
Pel, any car can be tracked, albeit the non Mezger engines are a lottery unless sorted out first. The question is what you want to get out of it?
Experience tells me that if you want to be lapping others rather than being lapped, then the best platform is one Porsche intended to be tracked as it will be closer to the end point. Relatively young cars help as well as wear and tear costs to put right.
The above sums up why my third Porsche, which was a clean slate purchase, was the R. I couild equally have gone with a GT3, but I would have had to accept an older car for the same price point.
That said, the very cheapest option is to drive what you have within its capabilities and enjoy yourself.
Experience tells me that if you want to be lapping others rather than being lapped, then the best platform is one Porsche intended to be tracked as it will be closer to the end point. Relatively young cars help as well as wear and tear costs to put right.
The above sums up why my third Porsche, which was a clean slate purchase, was the R. I couild equally have gone with a GT3, but I would have had to accept an older car for the same price point.
That said, the very cheapest option is to drive what you have within its capabilities and enjoy yourself.
100% agreed.
07-22-2015, 10:13 PM
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07-22-2015, 10:15 PM
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The 214s should be good for another second over the Z221s at HD I reckon John. You should go for it. I reckon with the number of laps youve done since you last gave the 964 PB time a go you will most definately improve your PB time by a satsifying amount mounting the 214s and giving it a hiding. Winter is a good time to try it (assuming dry) as engine is making good HP etc.
07-22-2015, 10:23 PM
Rennlist Member
Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
Originally Posted by Macca
The only 964 that has successfully broken below mid 19s At HD in our group I'm aware of is Sean's ex Bridgestone "RS" but this is a stripper with full cage (stiff), Cup suspension, RS brakes And chipped engine running just under 1250kg in present configure (all times quotes above on Z221 or 214)