JP66

I'm up to page 21 on this thread and am deciding to stop there for now. Not that anything said here makes a lick of difference in swaying the opinion of others, but I feel compelled to add my 2 cents as well since for me the point of reading this thread is to gauge the mood on this issue amongst RLers. Truthfully I think a poll is really what's needed now. In any case here are my thoughts.

1) A certain frequent commentor posted a link showing EV lap times superior to Porsches. I seriously doubt the validity of these times and wonder about things like tires or other mods that go unspoken but can make an enormous difference in lap times because my real world experiences are nothing even close. For starters those lap times wouldn't hold up in an actual 30 minute race so I'm not impressed by a one off. Second, I am a member of the Lime Rock Drivers club where we have track days that last all day and unlike PCA HPDE days there is no break so you go as long or as short as you want. EVs that I have personally seen on these track days spend most of the day charging and a couple have had dramatic brake failures, and maybe it's a product of the models that club members drive, but the simple fact is the EVs aren't even close to Porsches in lap times. In fact, a heavily modified Model 3 can't even do a 20 minute session on the autocross without losing power by the end.
2) I wonder how many 718 buyers are track enthusiasts. If you own a 718 because you enjoy driving your Porsche to get coffee and back on the weekend then an EV will be perfectly fine. If you enjoy taking your 718 to the track for a full day of sporty fun I see an EV 718 as a total non-starter. I simply can't imagine spending the time to drive up to Watkins Glenn only to spend half my day at the charging station.

Bottom line put me down as a person who thinks that if the 718 ICE dies completely then I feel the world will have lost the best mid-engine sporster of all time, but part of me thinks that in time the world will come to it's senses and get over the current governmentally mandated EV push thus allowing for a return to ICE or something better than current EV tech.

wizee

We're already approaching the point where some EVs can do a 15-20 minute run on track without substantially losing power, and I expect the initial 718 EV would also be capable of this. Given the past pace of development, I think with another 5 years of development, high end sports EVs will probably be able to do 25+ minutes on track comfortably without losing power. Most DE events are of the format where you're on for 20-25 minutes, then wait 60-90 minutes for your run group to return. As long as tracks add sufficient charging infrastructure, charging between runs should allow a normal track day. Of course, an all day non-stop track event like what JP66 is talking about would be less practical for current EV tech, though alternating between 20 minutes of driving and 20 minutes of charging wouldn't be all that bad. Driving on track is a physically/mentally intensive act, and humans benefit from some rest too.

I don't think I'll buy a first gen 718 EV because the tech is still advancing rapidly, I expect the range and track endurance would not yet be where I would like, and depreciation would likely be brutal, though if I had sufficient money I'd consider one to complement my Spyder. In the future, I'd love to have say a 983.2 Boxster or Spyder EV to complement my ICE 982 Spyder. I'm quite excited to see what the new 718 EV would be like, and where future EV tech would take us for the 983.2 and onwards. Just compare the current/old Taycan to the upcoming 2025 Taycan to get an idea for how rapidly EV tech is improving, or a 2019 Tesla Model S to a 2023 Lucid Air. The advancements over a short period of time in range, thermal performance/track endurance, and charging speed, are all night and day.

JP66

EV acceleration simply can't be beat, and so I see potential, but my gut tells me that tech simply won't meet expectations at least not for folks in my situation.

On a track day with the LRP Driver's club I drive 90 minutes to the track. Now I'd need to go an hour earlier so as to have time to charge my car. Next assume for a moment a couple of us have EV's and suddenly we're charging at 50% or less of max because 2 or more of us are hooked up to chargers at the same time. Now what was 20 mins on the charger turns into 40 mins or more. If we are truly going to be forced to transition in the coming decades I hope that improvements keep up with promises today, but again I have my serious doubts. Time will tell for sure. It certainly will be interesting 10 years from now to look back on our fears and hopes and compare them to what actually transpired. Truth is though I probably won't ever need to worry about any of this as I expect my current ICE Porsches will be around long after I've stopped enjoying track days.

worf928

You really, really, need to look into the economics of the super-high voltage chargers that enable quick charging that would enable your fantasy world.

How exactly do you think 10 to 20 400v/800v charging stations are going to get emplaced at Lime Rock or Watkins Glen? What would that cost? Who would pay for it?

Indeed, look into the economics of charging stations in rural areas in general.

Zhao

Even if you put hte charging stations at tracks it doesn't matter. Tracks have and are continuing to ban EV's all over. It's fire response, track damage caused by a nuclear fire if it happens on the racing surface, the inability of EV's to handle their own heat generation increasing the risk, and more importantly, most likely largely insurance policy driven which likely means its going to be very slow to unban them as no one is going to run a track event without an insurance company signing off on it.

And its not just the tracks but clubs that have banned them, and once club... and worse sanctioning bodies... decide on something there is a lot of red tape and debate to undo it.

level 2 chargers are pretty much pointless to install too.

SoCal-NSX

the lap times were just to show that the EV’s in question are not just 0-60 rocket ships that people try to portray them as, they actually handle quite well with the low CG and AWD dual motor systems and the lap times using the same driver(the Stig) in stock form on same track(Top Gear Test Track) is about the best indicator you can get to a fair comparison ….and yes, the stock Model 3 Performance has better lap times than a ton of modern day Porsches and other incredible sports cars on that particular track with the same professional driver…it wasn’t to try and say they are great track day choices just showing that they are quite capable cars…sadly less than 2% of the driving population will track their cars anyways, so it’s not like people are lining up to buy track cars….and battery tech is getting better everyday with lighter and longer lasting batteries, so let’s not pretend we are at the height of EV performance, we are basically in the infancy of it....a moddified Tesla just recently set the lap record at Willow Springs

I own both and can speak from experience as far as just day to day driving and would definitely rather track my 718 but I think the M3P would be a very capable car on the track and the “track mode” is pretty cool feature

I have a feeling the ICE Cayman will find its way back in some sort of genius marketing move, but I also have a feeling Porsche could make an E-718 that could easily embarrass a 911 turbo if they wanted to.

981KMAN

I can't help wondering when we will see a similar announcement from Porsche:

Mercedes-Benz delays electrification goal, beefs up combustion engine line-up

Zhao

No they actually don't handle quite well. they handle terribly. I reviewed ring laps and a Tesla Plaid is 14kph slower in a corner vs a 991.2 GT3. The Tesla struggled in the tricky sections to transition the momentum whereas the GT3 dances through them. There is no doubt in my mind the Plaid driver knew what he was doing and driving the Telsa near hte best it could be driven.

We don't need to analyze the videos even to tell. A simple lap time to power to weight calc will tell you all you really need to know that these cars are struggling with cornering. 1000hp cars with amazing EV power delivery that PDK can't hold a candle too should not get beaten by 400hp cars unless there is a corner grip problem.

And you dont even need to do that to tell. Simple logic with tesla tooting their performance in specific areas non stop like 0-60 times, but never mentioning anything to do with a corner made it pretty obvious before even looking at a lap time to know what was going to happen.

The low roll center is great, one of the best things to do to a car to make it handle good, but it is just masking the handling while things are away from the limits. Once you put it on the limits you can't fudge the laws of phyiscs and the tires are not going to like the added weight. There is a great Macan EV video showing the handling of that. It does really well actually for what it is, but those that know what to look for can tell... And even in that thing wiht its super low roll center it still almost tri-pods itself in the corners. That means it's really shifting taht weight and that means it's really loading up the outside tires.

SoCal-NSX

i wasn’t talking about the Model S, I was talking about the Model 3 Performance.

the Model 3 Performance weighs about the same as a BMW M3


the Model S plaid is about 1000 lbs heavier

Schn3ll

The problem Benz has is that even their hybrids suck now. The new C63 is selling about as well as the latest Disney movie (in Europe now), and they keep delaying the US launch.

They somehow figured out a way to go from a V8 twin turbo, to a 4 cylinder turbo plug-in hybrid and gain 1,000lbs, while turning the interior into a 2006 Ibiza rave and forgetting how to tune an automatic transmission, then asking $100k for it.

But most certainly we will see manufacturers walk back these nonsensical EV mandates.

TXshaggy

Pretty sure it’s governments establishing EV mandates and not manufacturers.

Auto makers will adjust throttles to meet consumer demand and compliance.

MB relaxing their target aligns with EU 2030 targets.

Schn3ll

Correct, I misspoke - yes EU is the culprit for this.

Definitely a sigh of relief from these legacy automakers, MB is having a very rough go with their EV’s right now, as is Ford, Chevy, Dodge (before it even starts), Volvo, etc.

Chester7

The market and reality rule the universe.

JP66

God, I hope so.

Zhao

You might be surprised but a G chassis base M3 weighs 36xx pounds, and the m3 is designed to run a 275 tire upfront and that does make a difference with handling for that weight. Ya you can option one up to almost 4000lbs, and my understanding is it's back to a 'good' handling car as a porker, but 36xx isn't the same category as 40xx lbs. The heaviest good handling car I can think of is the 1LE camaro, but it's still hundreds of pounds lighter than the model 3 P.

The model 3 performance, for having a doublewishbone front and multilink rear, still does not feel great on the edge running a 235 at over 4000lbs. You can just tell in this picture its putting a lot of weight on the outside.


Check out the performance's laguna seca lap times. They ran decently modified race track prepped one with slicks with a pro driver at laguna and put down a lap time seconds slower than a stock manual GT4 with that same driver at the wheel. A stock model 3 performance laps it in 6+ seconds slower? Keep in mind there are people dynoing tesla model 3 performance's at over 520whp stock. Still a pretty good time but a time that when you factor in the specs shows there is some underlining issues to be worked out still. There is a reason everyone tries to make their race car as light as possible.