Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
08-18-2018, 01:41 PM
#5761
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: York, PA
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't really get that last comment. I don't think anyone here has been overly negative towards anything you are saying. However when you are talking about potentially compromising a long time warranty on a vehicle where it's not uncommon for dealers to charge in excess of $300 for a basic oil change (imagine the premium for something that actually requires parts and work) I would hope you understand that people are probably going to want more than "I think", "shouldn't" and "probably" for answers when it comes to throwing tamper codes and what level of risk is involved in doing this.
I think a lot of us are interested in figuring out what it takes to get our CD driving right. To me it feels like the software for the fix was rushed and there are significant holes in both the engine and the trans tuning. I'm sure a lot of it is tuning to meet emissions but, some of it just seems like sloppy tuning.
For me the biggest issue I have is occasionally the engine will just not respond as expected to throttle input. I'm not talking about the engine trying to accelerate and being lugged by the trans not wanting to downshift (which does happen a lot) or revving higher than expected due to the converter not locking up. I'm saying there are times I hit the gas and absolutely nothing happens at all for close to 2 seconds. The engine will not even try to gain RPM so, I feed in more and more throttle over the 2 second dead zone and then it wakes up and is like "Oh, sorry I wasn't listening. You want 76% throttle? You got it! Hey TCU drops 4 cogs, ****s going down!"
This is by far the most annoying and problematic thing I have observed with my vehicle and it is not super repeatable. I have a feeling it is a hole in the map that needs a pretty specific set of circumstances to happen. On one hand I'm happy this issue is very infrequent because it would be hard to live with day in day out. On the other it makes it hard to demonstrate to the dealership and even more problematic is that it makes me a little bit hesitant pulling into traffic for fear that the vehicle might not accelerate.
Mostly I think I can live with the trans software but, it definitely could be better. I would be happy if it were more willing to downshift one or two gears when rolling into the throttle and not lug the engine so bad, which correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like your file is going to be even more reluctant to downshift because it is for the pre-fix engine tuning and expects there to be more torque available down low than there is now. As it sits now it lugs, I give more throttle, it lugs, more throttle, it then downshifts multiple gears and shoots way up the tach. If it would have just shifted from 8th to 7th or 6th (as I do manually occasionally) when I rolled into the gas at 45MPH it could have avoided me requesting so much throttle.
Also, I'm assuming you would like to be compensated for this service at some point. What are you charging for this tune? You may already be aware but, most forums I've been on will want you to become a vendor if you are going to be selling services on their sites.
I think a lot of us are interested in figuring out what it takes to get our CD driving right. To me it feels like the software for the fix was rushed and there are significant holes in both the engine and the trans tuning. I'm sure a lot of it is tuning to meet emissions but, some of it just seems like sloppy tuning.
For me the biggest issue I have is occasionally the engine will just not respond as expected to throttle input. I'm not talking about the engine trying to accelerate and being lugged by the trans not wanting to downshift (which does happen a lot) or revving higher than expected due to the converter not locking up. I'm saying there are times I hit the gas and absolutely nothing happens at all for close to 2 seconds. The engine will not even try to gain RPM so, I feed in more and more throttle over the 2 second dead zone and then it wakes up and is like "Oh, sorry I wasn't listening. You want 76% throttle? You got it! Hey TCU drops 4 cogs, ****s going down!"
This is by far the most annoying and problematic thing I have observed with my vehicle and it is not super repeatable. I have a feeling it is a hole in the map that needs a pretty specific set of circumstances to happen. On one hand I'm happy this issue is very infrequent because it would be hard to live with day in day out. On the other it makes it hard to demonstrate to the dealership and even more problematic is that it makes me a little bit hesitant pulling into traffic for fear that the vehicle might not accelerate.
Mostly I think I can live with the trans software but, it definitely could be better. I would be happy if it were more willing to downshift one or two gears when rolling into the throttle and not lug the engine so bad, which correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like your file is going to be even more reluctant to downshift because it is for the pre-fix engine tuning and expects there to be more torque available down low than there is now. As it sits now it lugs, I give more throttle, it lugs, more throttle, it then downshifts multiple gears and shoots way up the tach. If it would have just shifted from 8th to 7th or 6th (as I do manually occasionally) when I rolled into the gas at 45MPH it could have avoided me requesting so much throttle.
Also, I'm assuming you would like to be compensated for this service at some point. What are you charging for this tune? You may already be aware but, most forums I've been on will want you to become a vendor if you are going to be selling services on their sites.
And this same 2 second lag behavior has now been confirmed on the Touaregs as well, so I'm sure it is an across the board issues with the post fix PCM and TCM software.
I agree with you and both software being rushed through just to appeal to the needs of the EPA fix, and time line.
What I do on the TCM software is keep it as stealthy as possible. Can it be detected yes. Can it be detected by a normal dealer scan, no.
Hence the words "should", "probably" etc. Any time you make even a 1 digit change to the software code it can be detected.
I completely understand the warranty thing. Expensive car, expensive maintenance. It's not just a Porsche thing, the Audi, and VW versions are not much better.
Maybe slight less expensive due to slightly lower labor rate if at all.
What the Q7, and Treg people are doing is using the large sum of money that VW paid to them just in case something happens and they have to pay for it.
08-18-2018, 02:20 PM
#5762
Rennlist Member
I don't really get that last comment. I don't think anyone here has been overly negative towards anything you are saying. However when you are talking about potentially compromising a long time warranty on a vehicle where it's not uncommon for dealers to charge in excess of $300 for a basic oil change (imagine the premium for something that actually requires parts and work) I would hope you understand that people are probably going to want more than "I think", "shouldn't" and "probably" for answers when it comes to throwing tamper codes and what level of risk is involved in doing this.
I think a lot of us are interested in figuring out what it takes to get our CD driving right. To me it feels like the software for the fix was rushed and there are significant holes in both the engine and the trans tuning. I'm sure a lot of it is tuning to meet emissions but, some of it just seems like sloppy tuning.
For me the biggest issue I have is occasionally the engine will just not respond as expected to throttle input. I'm not talking about the engine trying to accelerate and being lugged by the trans not wanting to downshift (which does happen a lot) or revving higher than expected due to the converter not locking up. I'm saying there are times I hit the gas and absolutely nothing happens at all for close to 2 seconds. The engine will not even try to gain RPM so, I feed in more and more throttle over the 2 second dead zone and then it wakes up and is like "Oh, sorry I wasn't listening. You want 76% throttle? You got it! Hey TCU drops 4 cogs, ****s going down!"
This is by far the most annoying and problematic thing I have observed with my vehicle and it is not super repeatable. I have a feeling it is a hole in the map that needs a pretty specific set of circumstances to happen. On one hand I'm happy this issue is very infrequent because it would be hard to live with day in day out. On the other it makes it hard to demonstrate to the dealership and even more problematic is that it makes me a little bit hesitant pulling into traffic for fear that the vehicle might not accelerate.
Mostly I think I can live with the trans software but, it definitely could be better. I would be happy if it were more willing to downshift one or two gears when rolling into the throttle and not lug the engine so bad, which correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like your file is going to be even more reluctant to downshift because it is for the pre-fix engine tuning and expects there to be more torque available down low than there is now. As it sits now it lugs, I give more throttle, it lugs, more throttle, it then downshifts multiple gears and shoots way up the tach. If it would have just shifted from 8th to 7th or 6th (as I do manually occasionally) when I rolled into the gas at 45MPH it could have avoided me requesting so much throttle.
Also, I'm assuming you would like to be compensated for this service at some point. What are you charging for this tune? You may already be aware but, most forums I've been on will want you to become a vendor if you are going to be selling services on their sites.
I think a lot of us are interested in figuring out what it takes to get our CD driving right. To me it feels like the software for the fix was rushed and there are significant holes in both the engine and the trans tuning. I'm sure a lot of it is tuning to meet emissions but, some of it just seems like sloppy tuning.
For me the biggest issue I have is occasionally the engine will just not respond as expected to throttle input. I'm not talking about the engine trying to accelerate and being lugged by the trans not wanting to downshift (which does happen a lot) or revving higher than expected due to the converter not locking up. I'm saying there are times I hit the gas and absolutely nothing happens at all for close to 2 seconds. The engine will not even try to gain RPM so, I feed in more and more throttle over the 2 second dead zone and then it wakes up and is like "Oh, sorry I wasn't listening. You want 76% throttle? You got it! Hey TCU drops 4 cogs, ****s going down!"
This is by far the most annoying and problematic thing I have observed with my vehicle and it is not super repeatable. I have a feeling it is a hole in the map that needs a pretty specific set of circumstances to happen. On one hand I'm happy this issue is very infrequent because it would be hard to live with day in day out. On the other it makes it hard to demonstrate to the dealership and even more problematic is that it makes me a little bit hesitant pulling into traffic for fear that the vehicle might not accelerate.
Mostly I think I can live with the trans software but, it definitely could be better. I would be happy if it were more willing to downshift one or two gears when rolling into the throttle and not lug the engine so bad, which correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like your file is going to be even more reluctant to downshift because it is for the pre-fix engine tuning and expects there to be more torque available down low than there is now. As it sits now it lugs, I give more throttle, it lugs, more throttle, it then downshifts multiple gears and shoots way up the tach. If it would have just shifted from 8th to 7th or 6th (as I do manually occasionally) when I rolled into the gas at 45MPH it could have avoided me requesting so much throttle.
Also, I'm assuming you would like to be compensated for this service at some point. What are you charging for this tune? You may already be aware but, most forums I've been on will want you to become a vendor if you are going to be selling services on their sites.
But same thing, it's like there is a sensor in the throttle position not being read by the computers and the engine just doesn't respond until the signal finally makes it through the rest of the traffic and, like you said, it's going down.
I have to wonder if the engine responded, the transmission would respond appropriately. It seems like the transmission wants to do the right thing, at least since my last service.
08-18-2018, 03:04 PM
#5763
Sorry my attempt at humor
And this same 2 second lag behavior has now been confirmed on the Touaregs as well, so I'm sure it is an across the board issues with the post fix PCM and TCM software.
I agree with you and both software being rushed through just to appeal to the needs of the EPA fix, and time line.
What I do on the TCM software is keep it as stealthy as possible. Can it be detected yes. Can it be detected by a normal dealer scan, no.
Hence the words "should", "probably" etc. Any time you make even a 1 digit change to the software code it can be detected.
I completely understand the warranty thing. Expensive car, expensive maintenance. It's not just a Porsche thing, the Audi, and VW versions are not much better.
Maybe slight less expensive due to slightly lower labor rate if at all.
What the Q7, and Treg people are doing is using the large sum of money that VW paid to them just in case something happens and they have to pay for it.
And this same 2 second lag behavior has now been confirmed on the Touaregs as well, so I'm sure it is an across the board issues with the post fix PCM and TCM software.
I agree with you and both software being rushed through just to appeal to the needs of the EPA fix, and time line.
What I do on the TCM software is keep it as stealthy as possible. Can it be detected yes. Can it be detected by a normal dealer scan, no.
Hence the words "should", "probably" etc. Any time you make even a 1 digit change to the software code it can be detected.
I completely understand the warranty thing. Expensive car, expensive maintenance. It's not just a Porsche thing, the Audi, and VW versions are not much better.
Maybe slight less expensive due to slightly lower labor rate if at all.
What the Q7, and Treg people are doing is using the large sum of money that VW paid to them just in case something happens and they have to pay for it.
I understand about the detectability and the uncertainty of what is visible and what isn't depending on how deep they dig.
I was actually hoping to get the Openflash guys to develop a tune for the CD even if it were just to get back to the original drivability and low end torque. The detectability/warranty concerns seemed to stifle any interest in that pretty quickly. They claim to have a reasonably high level of invisibility with their products too, including reseting the flash counter and BMW tamper codes, assuming they could do with the CD, that sounded pretty appealing to me.
08-18-2018, 05:19 PM
#5764
Intermediate
I also noticed the drop in responsiveness when accelerate. Its very annoying especially coming out of corners. I now use sports mode all the time when I drive.
Its not as good as before the recall, this is now my default driving mode. Consumption suffered tho.
Its not as good as before the recall, this is now my default driving mode. Consumption suffered tho.
08-18-2018, 07:18 PM
#5766
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: York, PA
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok gotcha, I was wondering if I missed a "spirited" debate on the merits of your TCU software of something.
I understand about the detectability and the uncertainty of what is visible and what isn't depending on how deep they dig.
I was actually hoping to get the Openflash guys to develop a tune for the CD even if it were just to get back to the original drivability and low end torque. The detectability/warranty concerns seemed to stifle any interest in that pretty quickly. They claim to have a reasonably high level of invisibility with their products too, including reseting the flash counter and BMW tamper codes, assuming they could do with the CD, that sounded pretty appealing to me.
I understand about the detectability and the uncertainty of what is visible and what isn't depending on how deep they dig.
I was actually hoping to get the Openflash guys to develop a tune for the CD even if it were just to get back to the original drivability and low end torque. The detectability/warranty concerns seemed to stifle any interest in that pretty quickly. They claim to have a reasonably high level of invisibility with their products too, including reseting the flash counter and BMW tamper codes, assuming they could do with the CD, that sounded pretty appealing to me.
I forgot to post a smiley at the end which would've cleared that up...
I can also do that in going back to a stock PCM flash while keeping the CVN and flash counters the same. But I need to have the PCM in hand to do so, not sure if they can do OBD or not.
The PCM's are held in by tamperproof screw that shear off the heads of the bolts upon installation. And they have lock tite holding them in as well.
Here is the VW version of removal...
I did start a thread on CT about gaging the interest of PCM aka ECU flashing going back to a pre-fix version of the software.
(if you have to take it to dealer cough-cough something shorted out and I had to replace the PCM.)
Another way to go with the PCM, and TCM would be to get a new/ used unit and swap them in and out as needed for warranty work.
Swapping both modules would obviously fix everything that the "fixed" software broke. Even with the TCM tune people are still reporting that the PCM/ ECU is lacking about 20% of the original torque...
08-18-2018, 07:19 PM
#5767
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: York, PA
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes and Ad-Blu consumption is way up especially when towing from what i'm hearing.
08-18-2018, 08:02 PM
#5768
Rennlist Member
That's interesting. Mine is 100% repeatable. And it's 2-3 seconds.
But same thing, it's like there is a sensor in the throttle position not being read by the computers and the engine just doesn't respond until the signal finally makes it through the rest of the traffic and, like you said, it's going down.
I have to wonder if the engine responded, the transmission would respond appropriately. It seems like the transmission wants to do the right thing, at least since my last service.
But same thing, it's like there is a sensor in the throttle position not being read by the computers and the engine just doesn't respond until the signal finally makes it through the rest of the traffic and, like you said, it's going down.
I have to wonder if the engine responded, the transmission would respond appropriately. It seems like the transmission wants to do the right thing, at least since my last service.
08-19-2018, 08:44 AM
#5770
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Yup, I was all fired up to buy a CD after they were released post fix. The issue described by you with the delay to roll on throttle was immediately obvious during a 10 minute test drive. Even in sport mode, every time I attempted to accelerate after braking into a turn there was an unacceptable delay followed by a jolt of acceleration a couple seconds later.
08-19-2018, 11:22 AM
#5771
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
interesting. Mine is there in full force. In fact, it drives much like the car did pre-fix. It completely eliminates the delay. But as a consequence, it holds on to gears way too long and kind of sucks for daily driving. If it were my daily driver, I’d drive in sport manual all the time and be done with it.
08-20-2018, 07:09 AM
#5772
Instructor
I’m curious after reading the recent discussions about lag, safety, and driveability combined with my survey with now 96 responses showing 58% either “sorry they did the fix” or “noticeably negative performance”, has anyone contacted our class counsel? They have been paid untold millions to represent us and I have found them to at least answer the phone. I was disappointed when I talked to them probably more than a year ago that they had never even driven a CD.
08-20-2018, 11:50 PM
#5774
Intermediate
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Out of curiosity, what are you using to log this data? It might be good if multiple people are gathering data in the same way to figure out what is going on with the lag.
I have it occasionally and have not figured out what conditions make it happen as it’s not super repeatable. Sometimes it’s at throttle tip in after nearly stopping, sometimes it from a dead stop. Seems to be more prevalent when the temp is above 90F. Other times it does both of those type of events without issue.
Its too early to really mean anything but I ran archoil in this tank and the severe lag has not been present even while the temps have been in the mid-90s. It drives like a typical diesel which is always going to be a bit slower in throttle response compared to gas engines.
-Brake and REV to 1000 rpm
-Drop brake, floor the gas and hit start
-Hit lap once the boost kicks in
-Hit stop once the car hits 60, and try to anticipate it rather than just waiting for it to hit and then pressing, try to time the press with 60.
By the way, when I say lag, I get some minor response but it's like I'm pressing the pedel 5% down rather than 100% you're actually doing and only getting a 5% response the first 1.7 seconds.
08-21-2018, 07:48 AM
#5775
It would be good to have something that logs via OBDII so we can start to dig into where the issue lies. Tedious little things like understanding if the ECU sees the throttle request and just doesn't respond or does it not even read the throttle input for a delayed period for some odd reason in these cases can go a long way in figuring out what is going on.
I have an ancient OBD tool that might read some of that stuff. Is there something better than Durametric out there for the diesels,that can display actual values out of the ECU? Besides a pirated PIWIS...
I have an ancient OBD tool that might read some of that stuff. Is there something better than Durametric out there for the diesels,that can display actual values out of the ECU? Besides a pirated PIWIS...