Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
02-22-2017, 12:37 PM
#3137
Because you get to keep your car with minimal* changes? Because on top of keeping your car you are going to get a fair chunk of pocket change? Yeap, real **** sandwich there... 
If you people crying about not getting a buyback dislike your Cayennes so much, why did you buy them in the first place and why haven't you gotten rid of them before now?
* Still to be determined if VAG's definition of minimal matches ours...
If you people crying about not getting a buyback dislike your Cayennes so much, why did you buy them in the first place and why haven't you gotten rid of them before now?
* Still to be determined if VAG's definition of minimal matches ours...
02-22-2017, 12:50 PM
#3138
Pro
Last I checked the value and performance of vehicle will go down because of blatent and intentional fraud
And the outcome for someone who spent 30k on a car gets same amount for damages plus a buyback vs some one paying 80 k for a car
I guess we have different interpretations of s*** sandwhich
And the outcome for someone who spent 30k on a car gets same amount for damages plus a buyback vs some one paying 80 k for a car
I guess we have different interpretations of s*** sandwhich
02-22-2017, 01:43 PM
#3142
Rennlist Member
Last I checked the value and performance of vehicle will go down because of blatent and intentional fraud
And the outcome for someone who spent 30k on a car gets same amount for damages plus a buyback vs some one paying 80 k for a car
I guess we have different interpretations of s*** sandwhich
And the outcome for someone who spent 30k on a car gets same amount for damages plus a buyback vs some one paying 80 k for a car
I guess we have different interpretations of s*** sandwhich
If not, you haven't checked diddly... other than everyone else's speculation. Personally, I think it'll go down, but at least I acknowledge that's speculation and not fact.
And no, someone who spent 30K doesn't get the same as someone who spent 80K IF it comes to a buyback. The Porsche base number is a lot higher than the VW and a little higher than the Audi buyback base number. Then, of course, it's all up to the NADA value numbers, but I'd wager that the Cayennes ware higher than the VW and Audis of the same model years, so once again, you're better off (in a buyback scenario). Of course, newer Audis and maybe even VWs could have had higher values as of 9/1/15, so could have the same or maybe even more value than your '14 CD.
But, in a fix scenario, which is most likely, you get to keep your $80K car with, theoretically no, or only minimal performance/efficiency degradation. And you get cash, based on the value of your car when the scandal broke. Yes, a newer Audi or VW, even, may have had a higher value than your car in 2015, so they may get a higher payment for their fix.
That's life. And it's fair, in this case, relatively speaking. Whether the whole thing is fair is another question entirely.
02-22-2017, 01:57 PM
#3143
Personally, I'm undecided (good vs bad deal) but maybe leaning towards it being a good deal for thoise that want to keep the car. I'd like to first know what the number will be, the logic behind the formula (and, of course, listen to the pros/cons of those on this forum.).
skiahh, thanks. Makes sense that the pre-paid maintenance would be refunded on a pro-rata basis. For me, I'm looking at the 'fix' option only as it is the only one that applies near term. For the options, I kind of understand your point there but something bugs me. In the number for the "fix" was there consideration for the future value due to the fraud or was it just 'sorry for the inconvenience'. I have not read the document(s) so I'm asking from a naive POV. If the settlement considered future value then I'm not certain why it wouldn't consider the options.
skiahh, thanks. Makes sense that the pre-paid maintenance would be refunded on a pro-rata basis. For me, I'm looking at the 'fix' option only as it is the only one that applies near term. For the options, I kind of understand your point there but something bugs me. In the number for the "fix" was there consideration for the future value due to the fraud or was it just 'sorry for the inconvenience'. I have not read the document(s) so I'm asking from a naive POV. If the settlement considered future value then I'm not certain why it wouldn't consider the options.
02-22-2017, 02:01 PM
#3144
You know something about the performance after the fix? Do share... because no one else does. Are you a Porsche engineer with some inside info?
If not, you haven't checked diddly... other than everyone else's speculation. Personally, I think it'll go down, but at least I acknowledge that's speculation and not fact.
And no, someone who spent 30K doesn't get the same as someone who spent 80K IF it comes to a buyback. The Porsche base number is a lot higher than the VW and a little higher than the Audi buyback base number. Then, of course, it's all up to the NADA value numbers, but I'd wager that the Cayennes ware higher than the VW and Audis of the same model years, so once again, you're better off (in a buyback scenario). Of course, newer Audis and maybe even VWs could have had higher values as of 9/1/15, so could have the same or maybe even more value than your '14 CD.
But, in a fix scenario, which is most likely, you get to keep your $80K car with, theoretically no, or only minimal performance/efficiency degradation. And you get cash, based on the value of your car when the scandal broke. Yes, a newer Audi or VW, even, may have had a higher value than your car in 2015, so they may get a higher payment for their fix.
That's life. And it's fair, in this case, relatively speaking. Whether the whole thing is fair is another question entirely.
If not, you haven't checked diddly... other than everyone else's speculation. Personally, I think it'll go down, but at least I acknowledge that's speculation and not fact.
And no, someone who spent 30K doesn't get the same as someone who spent 80K IF it comes to a buyback. The Porsche base number is a lot higher than the VW and a little higher than the Audi buyback base number. Then, of course, it's all up to the NADA value numbers, but I'd wager that the Cayennes ware higher than the VW and Audis of the same model years, so once again, you're better off (in a buyback scenario). Of course, newer Audis and maybe even VWs could have had higher values as of 9/1/15, so could have the same or maybe even more value than your '14 CD.
But, in a fix scenario, which is most likely, you get to keep your $80K car with, theoretically no, or only minimal performance/efficiency degradation. And you get cash, based on the value of your car when the scandal broke. Yes, a newer Audi or VW, even, may have had a higher value than your car in 2015, so they may get a higher payment for their fix.
That's life. And it's fair, in this case, relatively speaking. Whether the whole thing is fair is another question entirely.
02-22-2017, 02:11 PM
#3145
Pro
Fair point on knowing factually for sure on degradation of performance but intuition would lead me to believe why would vwag / pag have chosen not been compliant to begin with If they had engineering to do so that delivers same results
Correct me if I'm wrong 2.0l owners were given damages plus buy back
And the damages they received we not percentagely in proportion to value of those cars vs 3.0l. 10000 in damages for a msrp. 30k 2.0 vs on average $10k for 3.0 liter w a msrp 80k
Thus my opinion which everyone is entitled to i feel the settlement we received is inferior to the 2.0 l
I would have anticipated A higher number for damages for 3.0 l
But not here to argue with fellow RL's just trying understand the settlement and options available
Correct me if I'm wrong 2.0l owners were given damages plus buy back
And the damages they received we not percentagely in proportion to value of those cars vs 3.0l. 10000 in damages for a msrp. 30k 2.0 vs on average $10k for 3.0 liter w a msrp 80k
Thus my opinion which everyone is entitled to i feel the settlement we received is inferior to the 2.0 l
I would have anticipated A higher number for damages for 3.0 l
But not here to argue with fellow RL's just trying understand the settlement and options available
02-22-2017, 02:11 PM
#3146
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Ddesimone17
Last I checked the value and performance of vehicle will go down because of blatent and intentional fraud
And the outcome for someone who spent 30k on a car gets same amount for damages plus a buyback vs some one paying 80 k for a car
I guess we have different interpretations of s*** sandwhich
And the outcome for someone who spent 30k on a car gets same amount for damages plus a buyback vs some one paying 80 k for a car
I guess we have different interpretations of s*** sandwhich
02-22-2017, 02:52 PM
#3147
Correct me if I'm wrong 2.0l owners were given damages plus buy back
So yes I will agree with you that the buyback portion of the 3.0 deal is pretty lame, but I'm hoping that it doesn't come to that and I think the non-buyback portion of the deal is pretty good.
02-22-2017, 03:39 PM
#3148
Rennlist Member
According to the 2015 NADA book it does allow you to factor in air suspension as a valued option. Adaptive cruise, I can't recall. But I do seem to remember there were only like two options they listed, so not too much love for customization in the used car market.
If it is a OEM option over $1000, then you can add it if NADA doesn't price it for you - at least that seems to be the message (this is new and not part of 2.0L case). Option packages was not clearly explained - may be a good comment to ask the PSC attorney as they are rather sizable in cost. 3rd party - after market options = seems like no value. But it is irrelevant if there is a fix - see below.
^^^^ This ^^^^.
Vehicle value determination is only applicable if there is a buy back or trade-in option. If there is an approved fix, keep the vehicle or sell after it's fixed ... your choice. Still get VAG restitution and Bosch restitution.
I saw this too. Here is the thread I read ... http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=473022
I also found it interesting the University of West Virginia (same lab that uncovered the issue) is enjoined by PSC to do detailed testing. They outline their process in the court transcript from Feb 14th, but essentially they are doing very detailed theoretical and real world tests (dynos, tailpipe emissions, driving, etc.) on the exact same vehicles provided by class members before the "fix" and after the "fix". The PSC promises to publish the test results for all class members so we can add that information into our decision making process. Reads like these tests will be in addition to standard EPA compliant test and are designed specifically to answer the "reduced performance" standard in the settlement, i.e. greater than 3 MPG decrease and greater than 5% loss or torque/HP.
It was also clearly stated in the court documents that VAG et al will make the repairs, but EPA/CARB determines whether there is a performance reduction (possibly in consultation with WVU). I'm pretty confident we will know what type of performance reduction, if any, we're dealing with, even if we don't like the fact EPA/CARB approved the emissions fix ... but hey, we may get an extra whopping $500 for it 
.
Vehicle value determination is only applicable if there is a buy back or trade-in option. If there is an approved fix, keep the vehicle or sell after it's fixed ... your choice. Still get VAG restitution and Bosch restitution.
I also found it interesting the University of West Virginia (same lab that uncovered the issue) is enjoined by PSC to do detailed testing. They outline their process in the court transcript from Feb 14th, but essentially they are doing very detailed theoretical and real world tests (dynos, tailpipe emissions, driving, etc.) on the exact same vehicles provided by class members before the "fix" and after the "fix". The PSC promises to publish the test results for all class members so we can add that information into our decision making process. Reads like these tests will be in addition to standard EPA compliant test and are designed specifically to answer the "reduced performance" standard in the settlement, i.e. greater than 3 MPG decrease and greater than 5% loss or torque/HP.
It was also clearly stated in the court documents that VAG et al will make the repairs, but EPA/CARB determines whether there is a performance reduction (possibly in consultation with WVU). I'm pretty confident we will know what type of performance reduction, if any, we're dealing with, even if we don't like the fact EPA/CARB approved the emissions fix ... but hey, we may get an extra whopping $500 for it
.
02-22-2017, 03:39 PM
#3149
Track Day
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I read the Exihibit 2 - Settlement Payment Ranges document today for the 3.0l settlement ...
It is found here:
https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en...%201.31.17.pdf
I have a 2013 ... so my numbers here are from the document based on 2013 cayenne diesel ...
IF - IF - IF they get an approved fix in a timely manner, my vehicle is eligible for that fix and a payment between $8229 -$8620. That is ON TOP of the Repair Payment of arounc $3600 and change. Since I am not the original owner, my understanding is that I may have to share 50% of one, the other, or both of those with prior owner(s). So - my WORST case payment is a car with the fix and about $5900 cash.
However - IF they don't meet the deadline OR if the approved fix doesn't bring it FULLY into compliance but is still approved (I tend to think of this as a 'partial fix'), then I get a choice of either a buy back or a payment and keep it along with them applying the 'partial fix'. If buy back is the option I were to take (which is about a .0001% chance I would let them have it), then I would get between $58,953 and $75,141. This is a combination of the base NADA excluding any mileage and/or options then adding on for options plus adding on for restitution. Since mine was $79K MSRP, I am speculating on the order of $65-$70K for mine - which if my wife finds out about, might be hard to convince her we are not selling it to them.
HOWEVER - if I chose to keep it (which I ALMOST CERTAINLY would do), then I am eligible to receive payment of between $14,678 - $29,106. Again - based on my MSRP, etc, I am speculating I would be in the $20K ish range ... (not clear to me though if I would have to share half of that with the prior owner(s))
so ... my worst case is I keep the one I have now as it is un-modified in any way and $1800 (50% of repair payment) in my pocket ... or apply the fix and have at least $5900+ in my pocket ... or they miss their deadline for approval and I receive at least half (allowing for worst case sharing with prior owner) of $14K = $7K ...
And there is the possibility I could walk away with $20K+ in my pocket and a vehicle that I love that I bought well to start with ...
The more I read of the documents, the less concerned I am.
AND - while I am certainly no Porsche engineer ... I AM an engineer - albeit electrical - and my gut hunch is I will need to be prepared to spend a little bit more money and time on AdBlue refills ... aside from that, I suspect a dyno will be required to know anything has fallen off in terms of performance ... but again - I am not a Porsche engineer and am merely speculating. Besides ... another 70K miles and I'll be out of the extended warranty and can take $500 and flash it to bump torque output and reduce the adblue consumption ... heck - that's only 14 oil changes and a few sets of tires away!
Seriously though - having bought mine in November of 2016 expecting I would get nothing and still feeling like I got a good deal ... anything I get is bonus ... and to think there is a chance it could top $20K is on the order of like getting a 50% rebate on my purchase.
It is found here:
https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en...%201.31.17.pdf
I have a 2013 ... so my numbers here are from the document based on 2013 cayenne diesel ...
IF - IF - IF they get an approved fix in a timely manner, my vehicle is eligible for that fix and a payment between $8229 -$8620. That is ON TOP of the Repair Payment of arounc $3600 and change. Since I am not the original owner, my understanding is that I may have to share 50% of one, the other, or both of those with prior owner(s). So - my WORST case payment is a car with the fix and about $5900 cash.
However - IF they don't meet the deadline OR if the approved fix doesn't bring it FULLY into compliance but is still approved (I tend to think of this as a 'partial fix'), then I get a choice of either a buy back or a payment and keep it along with them applying the 'partial fix'. If buy back is the option I were to take (which is about a .0001% chance I would let them have it), then I would get between $58,953 and $75,141. This is a combination of the base NADA excluding any mileage and/or options then adding on for options plus adding on for restitution. Since mine was $79K MSRP, I am speculating on the order of $65-$70K for mine - which if my wife finds out about, might be hard to convince her we are not selling it to them.
HOWEVER - if I chose to keep it (which I ALMOST CERTAINLY would do), then I am eligible to receive payment of between $14,678 - $29,106. Again - based on my MSRP, etc, I am speculating I would be in the $20K ish range ... (not clear to me though if I would have to share half of that with the prior owner(s))
so ... my worst case is I keep the one I have now as it is un-modified in any way and $1800 (50% of repair payment) in my pocket ... or apply the fix and have at least $5900+ in my pocket ... or they miss their deadline for approval and I receive at least half (allowing for worst case sharing with prior owner) of $14K = $7K ...
And there is the possibility I could walk away with $20K+ in my pocket and a vehicle that I love that I bought well to start with ...
The more I read of the documents, the less concerned I am.
AND - while I am certainly no Porsche engineer ... I AM an engineer - albeit electrical - and my gut hunch is I will need to be prepared to spend a little bit more money and time on AdBlue refills ... aside from that, I suspect a dyno will be required to know anything has fallen off in terms of performance ... but again - I am not a Porsche engineer and am merely speculating. Besides ... another 70K miles and I'll be out of the extended warranty and can take $500 and flash it to bump torque output and reduce the adblue consumption ... heck - that's only 14 oil changes and a few sets of tires away!
Seriously though - having bought mine in November of 2016 expecting I would get nothing and still feeling like I got a good deal ... anything I get is bonus ... and to think there is a chance it could top $20K is on the order of like getting a 50% rebate on my purchase.
02-22-2017, 04:02 PM
#3150
I saw this too. Here is the thread I read ... http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=473022
IIRC there are similar threads popping up on Vortex too... but I try to avoid going there like the plague.