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Just for grins, I hunted around and found two C4 images from almost identical angles on opposite side of the car so that we could do a side-by-side comparison.
What is most apparent to me is the more diagonal section on the 991 just above the wheel well lip where the arrows are pointing. I know it's subtle in a way, but I think the difference definitely impacts the feel of the hips. You can see definite angle changes just above the wheel into the diagonal and then again at the top of the diagonal. The 997 is more continuously curved.
The edge of the rear window in the 997 is more vertical/shaper as it meet the rear fender. Thus leaving more cheek.
All of 991's the terrible deficiencies aside, I plan to let my flat earth society membership expire and get one.
I doubt most 997.2 owners or used buyers are trying to justify what they have. The price difference for the last model year is less than $20k for used cars for the 4s, for example. That is despite a new 991 4s costing about $20k more on average, with typical options ($10k+ increase in base price to start).
In terms of electric steering, there is no way most enthusiast porsche drivers cant tell the difference between hydraulic and the electric in the 991.1. It is frankly night and day. Sure, I dont doubt people will get acclimated to its inferiority but that doesnt mean much.
As for performance, the new 991.2 is still beaten by a first gen GTR. Certainly hyper car performance, if we are talking hyper cars from the mid 90s.
I specifically said the one criteria the new car meets is performance improvement, but sadly it took turbos to provide it. It has inferior engine response vs my car, but makes up with a better tq curve. I am better off having a first gen 997 turbo if that is a tradeoff I want to make.
I left out the awful interiors in the newer porsches because it matters less to me, bit the multitude of switches and buttons everywhere will (and are) aging extremely poorly.
If I was going to buy something today to replace my car it would be a gt3 or an exotic from another company. The 991 carreras are not interesting to me at all.
Originally Posted by Ynot
Like size, it's something people want to feel good about with what they currently have. If no one told you that it's electric steering, 90% of people out there will not be able to tell the difference. Steering is still direct and goes where you point it.
lol, that is very true, why is all American Muscle Car so huge compared to the European ones? Well just look around and your answer is in front of you.
Like electric steering, people need to complain about something to make them feel better.
3.) Performance, the new 991.2 is in the hyper car performance category
4.) Chassis, feels so much more stable than the 997
5.) Personally, I just think it looks better, subjective of course, especially the 991.2. The 997 is like the cute girl next door. The 991.2 is like that super model on the catwalk.
Same here, I think 991 looks great, the more I see it the more I like it.
I've said this a few times. I would had traded mine in a long time ago if I didn't spend so much on my 997. My 997 is very unique and I made it exactly the way I like it. Financially, it doesn't make sense to trade it in. The new 991.2 is a beast and I really want one. I might trade the 981 for one in a couple of years. Anyone who hasn't driven it should. It's insanely fast, makes my 997 TPC turbo feels slow in comparison.
In terms of electric steering, there is no way most enthusiast porsche drivers cant tell the difference between hydraulic and the electric in the 991.1. It is frankly night and day. Sure, I dont doubt people will get acclimated to its inferiority but that doesnt mean much.
As for performance, the new 991.2 is still beaten by a first gen GTR. Certainly hyper car performance, if we are talking hyper cars from the mid 90s.
I specifically said the one criteria the new car meets is performance improvement, but sadly it took turbos to provide it. It has inferior engine response vs my car, but makes up with a better tq curve. I am better off having a first gen 997 turbo if that is a tradeoff I want to make.
I left out the awful interiors in the newer porsches because it matters less to me, bit the multitude of switches and buttons everywhere will (and are) aging extremely poorly.
If I was going to buy something today to replace my car it would be a gt3 or an exotic from another company. The 991 carreras are not interesting to me at all.
Have you driven the 991 for an extended period of time? There is a difference but it's not that big of a difference.
lol, hyper cars of the 90's, give me a break, it's faster than a 2008 GT2, faster than a 991 GT3, Sports Auto clocked it at 7:30, it's faster than a lot of modern cars. GTR nurburgring times doesn't count, we all they used non production tires.
Awful interior is your opinion, I think most people who doesn't own the 997 will say the 991 interior is far more modern and more nice than the outdated 997 interior. Every time I get out of the 981 and into the 997, it just feels old.
The 997 is a great car, at the current price, there isn't much out there that beats it. Going back to your first paragraph, the price difference is huge, if it was a straight swap. I think most people would do it.
... but the multitude of switches and buttons everywhere will (and are) aging extremely poorly...
Just picking up on this one part of your statement, I've recently come to an new point of view on real touchable, visible, clickable buttons. I love 'em!
Our new Lexus NX, a car new to the market in 2015 and supposedly a modern UI design, takes the opposite approach and presents you with very few buttons. Instead, you have to wonder through levels of touchpad-accessed menus to change things, often very common controls. Almost everything you access that way is two or three levels down and you have to guess at the categories at times. And I'm a tech director/software engineer for a high-tech company so I typically "get" these things better than most.
So I find myself wishing they had given us quite a few more buttons that I can quickly find and press. At least for the friggin' radio! Instead, I either don't bother to change/access some things while driving because I have to look away at the menus for too long, or I have to wait for a light or pull over to make the change. What a PITA!
I think my 991.1 TTS cabin has fewer buttons and switches than my 997.1 TT had. The PCM 2.1 unit had lots of small buttons. They never bothered me, but there were quite a few of them.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here but the performance of the 991.2 is incredible. Yes, it does best gen 1 GTR. It almost performs as well at a GT3 RS and doesn't even need cup tires and it has the proper back seats.
Yes, it needed turbos to get there, but so does everyone else. Ferrari, GTR, M4 Gts, etc. btw, anyone she see some of the times in the M4 GTs and how the normal 991.2 C2S is actuallly faster on track than the GTS?
Originally Posted by SpeedyD
I doubt most 997.2 owners or used buyers are trying to justify what they have. The price difference for the last model year is less than $20k for used cars for the 4s, for example. That is despite a new 991 4s costing about $20k more on average, with typical options ($10k+ increase in base price to start).
In terms of electric steering, there is no way most enthusiast porsche drivers cant tell the difference between hydraulic and the electric in the 991.1. It is frankly night and day. Sure, I dont doubt people will get acclimated to its inferiority but that doesnt mean much.
As for performance, the new 991.2 is still beaten by a first gen GTR. Certainly hyper car performance, if we are talking hyper cars from the mid 90s.
I specifically said the one criteria the new car meets is performance improvement, but sadly it took turbos to provide it. It has inferior engine response vs my car, but makes up with a better tq curve. I am better off having a first gen 997 turbo if that is a tradeoff I want to make.
I left out the awful interiors in the newer porsches because it matters less to me, bit the multitude of switches and buttons everywhere will (and are) aging extremely poorly.
If I was going to buy something today to replace my car it would be a gt3 or an exotic from another company. The 991 carreras are not interesting to me at all.
Have you driven the 991 for an extended period of time? There is a difference but it's not that big of a difference.
lol, hyper cars of the 90's, give me a break, it's faster than a 2008 GT2, faster than a 991 GT3, Sports Auto clocked it at 7:30, it's faster than a lot of modern cars. GTR nurburgring times doesn't count, we all they used non production tires.
Actually, the 997 GT2 clocked 7:18 (Porsche factory test OEM). The Porsche 991 GT3 driven by Horst von Saurma was clocked at 7:32. The 991 Turbo S also driven by Saurma clocked in at 7:34. The 997 Turbo (non-S) was at 7:38 (Porsche factory test).
The fastest times by Porsches on the Nurburgring were set by (in order):
-918 Spyder
-918 Spyder
-997 GT2RS (7:18)
-997 GT2RS
-Carrera GT
-Carrera GT
-Carerra GT
-997 GT2
-991 GT3 (7:32)
In order for a Nurburgring time to count under the "Production" classification, it MUST use OEM tires.
The 991 GT3 is absolutely smoked and obliterated by numerous GTR, Corvette and Viper runs. A stock 2009 Corvette (bone stock with OEM tires) runs a good 10 seconds faster than the 991 GT3. Let that sink in for you. If we are dealing with a base 991 or 991S, it is even more humiliating and shows just how far behind Porsche has fallen from the 997 to 991 era.
Originally Posted by Ynot
Awful interior is your opinion, I think most people who doesn't own the 997 will say the 991 interior is far more modern and more nice than the outdated 997 interior. Every time I get out of the 981 and into the 997, it just feels old.
Yes, the 997 interior is crap. The 991 interior is also crap. Step inside a $50K E-Class, Lexus GS or Audi A6 for a lesson on how "luxury" interiors actually feel. The half-assed attempts by Porsche to "Panamerarize" the 911 is weak. "But it's less crappy than a 997!" is not really a good marketing point, and it's clearly reflected in the completely flat sales of the 991 over the past 4 years, despite the booming luxury car market and economic recovery. I stepped from my 981 to my mother in law's E-class this past weekend. It was sickening how utter crap the 981 interior is comparatively speaking. Don't get me started on my father in law's S-class AMG. I could live inside that car and feel great. Talking about the interior when it comes to the 997 vs 991 is like two midgets fighting over who is the better basketball player, who cares you both suck.
Originally Posted by Ynot
The 997 is a great car, at the current price, there isn't much out there that beats it. Going back to your first paragraph, the price difference is huge, if it was a straight swap. I think most people would do it.
Yes, and this is the problem. Porsche is trying to make "most people's car" as opposed to "the very best sports car for the money."
It is established that the 991 is far slower than other cars costing half as much, has a worse interior than a 50k family sedan, so what exactly is its selling point? Looks? Fun to drive? How is making the 991 bigger and fatter helping at all?
Why has interior been mentioned here so many times? We get it, you don't like the interior. Has it ever occurred to you that the interior isn't a huge priority to Porsche? The goal is to squeeze as much performance out of the car and part of that comes to power to wt ratio. Sure, if Porsche didn't care about Wt it too could have a nice and plush 4,000 lb 911.
porsche has always made stark and barebones interiors (have younever driven a 360 Modena?)
My dad has a 4,000lb AMG SL55. The interior is beautiful. The car is rock solid. He kind of thought he was "too old" to own another 911. He ended up taking a drive in my bros 991 C2S w/ PDK and he went home and immediately ordered one for himself. He now still has the sl55 and the 991. Ask him which one he drives. Ask him if he misses the interior of the SL vs the 911 and he just laughs. If interior is what you are looking for in a car. Look elsewhere, yourin thr wrong board.
Originally Posted by caymannyc
Actually, the 997 GT2 clocked 7:18 (Porsche factory test OEM). The Porsche 991 GT3 driven by Horst von Saurma was clocked at 7:32. The 991 Turbo S also driven by Saurma clocked in at 7:34. The 997 Turbo (non-S) was at 7:38 (Porsche factory test).
The fastest times by Porsches on the Nurburgring were set by (in order):
-918 Spyder
-918 Spyder
-997 GT2RS (7:18)
-997 GT2RS
-Carrera GT
-Carrera GT
-Carerra GT
-997 GT2
-991 GT3 (7:32)
In order for a Nurburgring time to count under the "Production" classification, it MUST use OEM tires.
The 991 GT3 is absolutely smoked and obliterated by numerous GTR, Corvette
Yes, the 997 interior is crap. The 991 interior is also crap. Step inside a $50K E-Class, Lexus GS or Audi A6 for a lesson on how "luxury" interiors actually feel. The half-assed attempts by Porsche to "Panamerarize" the 911 is weak. "But it's less crappy than a 997!" is not really a good marketing point, and it's clearly reflected in the completely flat sales of the 991 over the past 4 years, despite the booming luxury car market and economic recovery. I stepped from my 981 to my mother in law's E-class this past weekend. It was sickening how utter crap the 981 interior is comparatively speaking. Don't get me started on my father in law's S-class AMG. I could live inside that car and feel great. Talking about the interior when it comes to the 997 vs 991 is like two midgets fighting over who is the better basketball player, who cares you both suck.
Yes, and this is the problem. Porsche is trying to make "most people's car" as opposed to "the very best sports car for the money."
It is established that the 991 is far slower than other cars costing half as much, has a worse interior than a 50k family sedan, so what exactly is its selling point? Looks? Fun to drive? How is making the 991 bigger and fatter helping at all?
Yes, the 997 interior is crap. The 991 interior is also crap. Step inside a $50K E-Class, Lexus GS or Audi A6 for a lesson on how "luxury" interiors actually feel. The half-assed attempts by Porsche to "Panamerarize" the 911 is weak. "But it's less crappy than a 997!"
I may be in a minority here but I like the 997 interior just fine for what it is. The interior of a sports car. I don't want my 911 interior to look and feel like an E Class, Lexus GS or Audi A6. If I want luxury interior I'll buy a luxury sedan of some sort. As for the 991, one of the reasons it has zero appeal to me is that it's turned into something of a hybrid between sports car and luxury cruiser, interior included.
I may be in a minority here but I like the 997 interior just fine for what it is. The interior of a sports car. I don't want my 911 interior to look and feel like an E Class, Lexus GS or Audi A6. If I want luxury interior I'll buy a luxury sedan of some sort. As for the 991, one of the reasons it has zero appeal to me is that it's turned into something of a hybrid between sports car and luxury cruiser, interior included.
nope. We agree. Frankly if my interior was worse and I sacrificed another 100lbs and 20 hp for it, I would say GO FOR IT!!
let the AMG guys buy AMG cars. I came from an M3, my brother came from an RS5 and my dad an SL55 (he was the only one to keep his old weekend car). Ask any of us if we "miss" the luxury of those cars and you get laughed at.
Go buy a damn Lexus if that's the goal!! Btw, I recently went for a ride in a buddies X5 and the plastic dash and parts on the inside made an MDX feel like a freaking Bentley. Talk about cheapening the brand. I think Audi and Merc are doing the same.
rodH, not sure if your post was directed at me but I completely agree with you. The point I was trying to make is that interior really should be a non-factor, yet it is often cited as a reason to prefer the 991 over the 997. Well if we go down that road it is a losing battle either way since the 991 interior sucks compared to modern luxury cars. My favorite interuor of any car in the 50k-120k range is the Lotus Evora and Elise.
12-17-2016, 10:29 AM
