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And for the record, no one said that you could never tell the difference in the steering. Some people can and congrats to them. But most people cant
Its like the size ie people claim its so much bigger etc. But its just not
Cheers
You say most cant tell the difference, but most people don't drive 911s. Are you including all of them? Or you are insisting most 911 drivers cannot tell?
As for the looks, I think the 991 is ugly from the rear and the crease is ugly, full stop. On a relative basis it is not attractive in context of the comparison here. Calling it an ugly car in absolute terms is just wrong and if I didn't put it in context (either the crease, rear or vs the 997) then I was exaggerating. I am also first to admit that the 991 gt3 is on my list of cars I would upgrade to. It shares about 80% of its looks with the carrera, and even shares electric steering (but it is a much, much better implementation). So this is all in the context of the discussion.
Think of it as describing someone as poor in Canada and then comparing them to a truly poor part of the world, or a short basketball player, or a less attractive supermodel.
But I admit, it is not an ugly car, in an absolute sense :-)
First the 'why' bit. This is fairly easy. First, it's cheaper and easier to install. There's no need for a hydraulic pump in the engine bay, fluid lines to the steering gear (a fair distance apart on a 911 of course) and it's essentially maintenance free. Once you've designed the steering hardware it can be installed in any number of different cars and simply tuned to suit each application, or even variant should you be so inclined - it's all software based so, relatively, easy and affordable. And let's not forget the improvements in CO2 and fuel consumption.
As SpeedyD said, regs to meet fleet fuel economy requirements and driving a lot of changes these days
Here's some references:
German auto parts maker ZF Lenksysteme notes that its electric power steering system uses 90 percent less energy than hydraulic power steering.
TRW, another auto parts manufacturer, points out that its electric power steering systems result in a 4 percent fuel savings in cars
And further backing up rherring's response:
The Porsche 911 is a great case study for the packaging advantages of an EPAS system. Before the switch to electronic, a vast route of hydraulic piping had to be engineered into the car’s design to travel from the rear-mounted engine to the front wheels. On the 991 generation of cars, Porsche went with a full EPAS system so that the motors could be positioned at the front of the car with no lengthy piping required, in turn aiding the 911’s weight distribution - an important consideration for a rear-engined car. https://www.carthrottle.com/post/ele...-does-it-work/
So, I've owned a 996, a 997, and a 991. Can I tell the difference in steering feel? Yes. The car with the best steering feel was the 996. Is the 991 different from the 997? Yes. Is it somehow "worse"? No. It's just different. Would I go back to a 997 or 996 because of this? Nope.
You can tell a difference between road feel in the 997 vs. 991? No way -- you must be imagining it. Electric steering is JUST as good as hydraulic steering and only the nut job "old was better" people (who must have spidey sense) would claim something like that.
Sorry, couldn't help it (just read earlier posts in this thread where some dismiss people's ability to tell the difference in steering... which I think is absurd). Your assessment seems spot on across pretty much all points. I've driven several 991.1s and they are great cars (obviously) but they have gone even further down the spectrum towards being great GT cars. Your comment on the road feel being tiresome is probably fair when using the car as a comfortable mode of transport (e.g., as a GT car).
The looks of the 991 are not bad by any means imho, and this is very subjective of course, but I think the rear crease and new spoiler layout really is not visually appealing and won't hold up as well over time. BUT the side profile is certainly sleeker (with a more raked windshield) so I would not be surprised if people did view it as a bit more "exotic".
Great post from an owner of both!
SpeedyD I have to say I was so surprised at how much I could feel the road through the steering. I had read the complaint on the 991 many times but I just thought it was purists not liking the change. I completely agree with you on the GT car mentality. I have loved jumping in the 997 and really driving the car. The manual transmission and sport mode really turn that car into something different. Absolutely love that. It's also much smaller feeling which is fun as well and the look is really classic. My 991 has a little more super car feel and look to it. Non car people constantly ask me if it's a Ferrari which is kind of funny. I think the overall look winner for me goes to the 997! The only disagreement I have with you has to do with the spoiler. I really like the one on the 991 because it's wider and lower. Feels more thought out and useful. And I like how it looks up.
As for the precise reason behind Porsche (or more specifically VW) making the choice to move towards it... well, it is all about $ and emissions compliance.
I do believe that there is a video of someone from Porsche making a direct comment on the decision to move to electric to be based specifically on fuel economy, but it would take me some time to dig it up.
Hopefully the above is sufficient evidence to support my statement.
SpeedyD I have to say I was so surprised at how much I could feel the road through the steering. I had read the complaint on the 991 many times but I just thought it was purists not liking the change. I completely agree with you on the GT car mentality. I have loved jumping in the 997 and really driving the car. The manual transmission and sport mode really turn that car into something different. Absolutely love that. It's also much smaller feeling which is fun as well and the look is really classic. My 991 has a little more super car feel and look to it. Non car people constantly ask me if it's a Ferrari which is kind of funny. I think the overall look winner for me goes to the 997! The only disagreement I have with you has to do with the spoiler. I really like the one on the 991 because it's wider and lower. Feels more thought out and useful. And I like how it looks up.
I have (and have driven) multiple BMWs as well, and many people will point to BMWs as great driver cars. And they are. But 911 steering is in a different world completely.
I must also say that I am very very seriously contemplating a 991.2 GT3 (third on a wait list, so fingers crossed) and so I am not completely opposed to the 991 look. The side profile is absolutely more exotic looking, in large part due to windshield rake. I just can't come to like the rear view (at least not compared to what I already have in my car) - but it is completely subjective.
So, I've owned a 996, a 997, and a 991. Can I tell the difference in steering feel? Yes. The car with the best steering feel was the 996. Is the 991 different from the 997? Yes. Is it somehow "worse"? No. It's just different. Would I go back to a 997 or 996 because of this? Nope.
Dennis, is the steering not worse if the criteria for better were "more feedback to the driver"?
There can be many different ways to measure good vs. bad steering. In my mother's Town Car it was a big positive that you had to turn it about 20 degrees before it registered anything. She thought VWs and BMWs had problems because the steering was so "twitchy" -- well, because the car moved as you turned the wheel...
But in our discussion for steering, the more of a feel I have for the road surface and the transition stages of grip, the better the steering. So it is a bit narrow minded -- a pure sports car view.
I have driven a variety of 996s, including turbos, and actually feel the steering was equivalent to the 997. No better, no worse. But I can believe it might have been better. The difference between the 997 and 991 is much bigger in that regard.
Finally, I think you have a 991 turbo. I just posted (and have mentioned in the past many times) that 991 GT3s are top of my list of "want" cars. I am sure that a fair criticism from a 997 GT3 owner would be that the 991 GT3s lack steering feel -- and maybe a 997 GT3 is ultimately the better car. If I owned a 997 GT3 I might even agree with that :-) So no comment from me on turbos!
The only reason Porsche went electric steering was due to regs.
Two items here:
You cannot have that idiotic start-stop engine game at stop lights with hydraulic steering. The loss of steering support while standing would be unmanageable for regular drivers.
The real energy saving from EPS are that it uses no energy at all while you are not steering, whereas the hydraulic pump is always on. For the idiotic test cycles we have for fuel consumption you have very little steering, so this advantage is unrealistically magnified.
I also want to point out that there are variants of EPS cars that have very different steering feel. F80 M3 versus F30 3-series. 991 GT3 versus vanilla GT3.
I find it obvious that there is a lot of tuning going on, both in hardware and in software.
For starters is is confirmed that the real difference in some of those "performance line cars" is not in what the steering does when you increase the angle, but it related to the force that the software exercises when moving the wheel back to center.
I am also 100% sure that BMW tunes the steering resistance (both increased angle and return-to-center) on a car-by-car basis. In the factory, the dealers do not seem to have access to that.
Dennis, is the steering not worse if the criteria for better were "more feedback to the driver"?
There can be many different ways to measure good vs. bad steering. In my mother's Town Car it was a big positive that you had to turn it about 20 degrees before it registered anything. She thought VWs and BMWs had problems because the steering was so "twitchy" -- well, because the car moved as you turned the wheel...
But in our discussion for steering, the more of a feel I have for the road surface and the transition stages of grip, the better the steering. So it is a bit narrow minded -- a pure sports car view.
I have driven a variety of 996s, including turbos, and actually feel the steering was equivalent to the 997. No better, no worse. But I can believe it might have been better. The difference between the 997 and 991 is much bigger in that regard.
Finally, I think you have a 991 turbo. I just posted (and have mentioned in the past many times) that 991 GT3s are top of my list of "want" cars. I am sure that a fair criticism from a 997 GT3 owner would be that the 991 GT3s lack steering feel -- and maybe a 997 GT3 is ultimately the better car. If I owned a 997 GT3 I might even agree with that :-) So no comment from me on turbos!
It's a good question and it does force you to define what makes steering "better" in one car vs. the next. It's a somewhat of a subjective thing. To me, the 996 and the 997 offered more road feel than the 991. All of my 911s have been AWD cars, so that has some influence on steering feel.
In the 996 C4S, it seemed that I could feel every subtle change in the road through the steering wheel. That is definitely a great thing on the track. In the 997 TT, it was very similar, but slightly more muted. It could be because the 997 was a cabriolet and the 996 was a coupe; the 997 was definitely heavier.
In the 991 TTS cabriolet, it is muted a bit further. Of course you can still feel the road, but not every groove in the pavement. On the plus side, the 991 TTS has rear wheel steering, like the 991 GT3. The effect of this system is quite remarkable. It makes the car turn into corners so easily; the car feels extremely solid and planted in corners. With PDCC activated, the car is eerily stable.
The place where I really see the steering feel in the 997 being superior is driving on the edge of grip. In the 997, you can feel the limits of grip approaching through the steering wheel, and react accordingly. In the 991, it's so stable and so flat in the corners that the limits of grip can sneak up on you.
For me personally, I didn't buy the 991 TTS for track duty. I bought it to cruise on mountain roads with the top down, fun getaway weekends with my wife, etc. I bought it more as a luxury GT car. In that type of application, the electric steering system is great.
I have had the opportunity to drive a 991 GT3 on the track, and it was excellent. I've not been fortunate enough to drive a 997 GT3. Hopefully I'll get that chance someday.
I've driven various 991.1 cars. Favorite was a 911S with manual and pse. Rev match and exhaust sounds are fun, almost exotic. I sense the 991 is faster and more stable, but it's more filtered, less intimate.
The 997 shape is truly lovely. Better than 991 imo. I love getting into my 997 every time. The 991 felt less special.
I do like my 997. I prefer the more traditional 911 upright seating position and view over the front hood. In the 991, I feel a bit more like I am sitting low in an LMP car, looking up at the front fenders rather than looking down over them. Having said that, with very few exceptions (or none?), each new generation of 911 is incrementally better.
03-14-2017, 03:53 PM
