991 vs 997?
12-15-2016, 08:08 AM
#16
Those headlights are the deal breaker for me......I have zero interest in the 991....truly zero! And to me it seems too big as well. I dislike the interior too.
Personally, I own my last Porsche so it really doesn't matter what direction Porsche decides to go but as a long time fan of the brand I'm very disappointed.
Tom
Personally, I own my last Porsche so it really doesn't matter what direction Porsche decides to go but as a long time fan of the brand I'm very disappointed.
Tom
12-15-2016, 08:13 AM
#17
I get what you're saying but that's not really helpful. Old threads are old, based on old information and based on input from a set group of users in the past. There is more mileage now for both cars, new experiences, new people and perspectives that could provide additional benefit and more complete knowledge. For instance I got myself back into a 997 very recently despite having the funds for a new 991. My reasons are personal, unique from others and maybe they will resonate with the OP so I'll offer my perspective:
I don't understand why the typical response is generally "search is your friend" or something similar.
This should be a community to help others and if someone is new to the brand, what's really with a newer version of an older question?
12-15-2016, 08:16 AM
#18
The 991 being bigger is mostly perception from the body lines, it's marginally bigger, but looks much more standing by itself.
The interior looks great in my Cayenne GTS, I'm sure in a Panamera, but I wouldn't want that in my 997 GTS. The console and interior just don't do it for me.
The interior looks great in my Cayenne GTS, I'm sure in a Panamera, but I wouldn't want that in my 997 GTS. The console and interior just don't do it for me.
12-15-2016, 08:50 AM
#19
Advanced
I get what you're saying but that's not really helpful. Old threads are old, based on old information and based on input from a set group of users in the past. There is more mileage now for both cars, new experiences, new people and perspectives that could provide additional benefit and more complete knowledge. For instance I got myself back into a 997 very recently despite having the funds for a new 991. My reasons are personal, unique from others and maybe they will resonate with the OP so I'll offer my perspective:
In my view, the 991 is a better looking car from 2 angles: the back, and the front. I love the wider stance and the curvier rear and headlamp angles. However, the 997 to me looks better from the side due to its smaller size.
When the 991 first came out, I thought "wow that's a great looking car." As time went on, my views started changing. Part of this had to do with the fact that I started seeing Panameras everywhere. I wasn't sure if the Panamera was the 4-door version of the 991, or if the 991 was the 2-door version of the Panamera. It wasn't just the looks, it was the interior. Yes, the 991 interior is "nice", but it all felt very Panamera to me. And I don't think the 991 interior even comes close to offerings from Mercedes BMW or Audi, so it started feeling a bit like a half-arsed effort at luxury. If you want to be blown away, step inside a new E class or S class, OMG those are nice cars.
And why is the 991 so large? I mean who is the market for these things? I think the answer is obvious - middle aged men who want to "feel" fast but don't want to commit to actually being "fast." Make no mistake, the 991 is faster. In the S trim or Turbo, it is very quick. But it is NOT faster because of the "nicer" interior or the larger body. It is due to drivetrain/engine improvements and lighter weight. If Porsche had made similar improvements on a smaller chassis, I believe the car would be even quicker than it is now. But being quick and being an actual sports car are no longer the priority (and probably have not been for quite some time for Porsche). There is now equal importance on comfort and luxury and having things like heated seats and quiet fuel efficient engines.
So the problem is, the 991 has a worse interior than a MUCH CHEAPER E-class, and is slower than other similar cars. It's become a "jack of all trades but master of none", so hey, if it's going to go down that road, it'd better have some significant emotional appeal. Yes, it is fun to drive, but is a PDK 991 truly more fun than a manual Boxster or even a Miata or S2000 or a 3 series? Honestly, is it?
Obviously the 997 is also a "compromise" car, with navigation, heated seats and leather interiors and those back seats. But to me the 991 was just a step too far. The 996 has the IMS issues and the 993 is a bit too old for me.
Porsche's flagship will NEVER again be a 2-seat sports car. The market has spoken and it is too small. Porsche cars will only continue to get longer and larger and more "luxed" out. We are going to see hybrid engines and more electronic assists than ever. This is not because it makes the car better. It is because it is what more people want to buy and because regulations demand it.
The 997 for me was an emotional decision, based on my love of the brand and love for sports cars. I also bought a Cayman because I have a thing for 2-seaters. I don't care about "nice" leather and I would prefer having manual roll-down windows if they still made those. Those days are long gone now.
In my view, the 991 is a better looking car from 2 angles: the back, and the front. I love the wider stance and the curvier rear and headlamp angles. However, the 997 to me looks better from the side due to its smaller size.
When the 991 first came out, I thought "wow that's a great looking car." As time went on, my views started changing. Part of this had to do with the fact that I started seeing Panameras everywhere. I wasn't sure if the Panamera was the 4-door version of the 991, or if the 991 was the 2-door version of the Panamera. It wasn't just the looks, it was the interior. Yes, the 991 interior is "nice", but it all felt very Panamera to me. And I don't think the 991 interior even comes close to offerings from Mercedes BMW or Audi, so it started feeling a bit like a half-arsed effort at luxury. If you want to be blown away, step inside a new E class or S class, OMG those are nice cars.
And why is the 991 so large? I mean who is the market for these things? I think the answer is obvious - middle aged men who want to "feel" fast but don't want to commit to actually being "fast." Make no mistake, the 991 is faster. In the S trim or Turbo, it is very quick. But it is NOT faster because of the "nicer" interior or the larger body. It is due to drivetrain/engine improvements and lighter weight. If Porsche had made similar improvements on a smaller chassis, I believe the car would be even quicker than it is now. But being quick and being an actual sports car are no longer the priority (and probably have not been for quite some time for Porsche). There is now equal importance on comfort and luxury and having things like heated seats and quiet fuel efficient engines.
So the problem is, the 991 has a worse interior than a MUCH CHEAPER E-class, and is slower than other similar cars. It's become a "jack of all trades but master of none", so hey, if it's going to go down that road, it'd better have some significant emotional appeal. Yes, it is fun to drive, but is a PDK 991 truly more fun than a manual Boxster or even a Miata or S2000 or a 3 series? Honestly, is it?
Obviously the 997 is also a "compromise" car, with navigation, heated seats and leather interiors and those back seats. But to me the 991 was just a step too far. The 996 has the IMS issues and the 993 is a bit too old for me.
Porsche's flagship will NEVER again be a 2-seat sports car. The market has spoken and it is too small. Porsche cars will only continue to get longer and larger and more "luxed" out. We are going to see hybrid engines and more electronic assists than ever. This is not because it makes the car better. It is because it is what more people want to buy and because regulations demand it.
The 997 for me was an emotional decision, based on my love of the brand and love for sports cars. I also bought a Cayman because I have a thing for 2-seaters. I don't care about "nice" leather and I would prefer having manual roll-down windows if they still made those. Those days are long gone now.
12-15-2016, 09:26 AM
#20
Rocky Mountain High
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
To be honest the 997 feels large to me. When I go from my Cayman to the 997 it always surprises me how big the car is. I almost always drive the Porsches alone and it is disconcerting having vast empty spaces to my right and a cavernous void behind me. 1" wider and longer is a significant difference to a car, both performance wise and looks wise. Make the current 991 1" wider and it will have trouble fitting into certain parking spots. But besides all that, you just got to ask, why exactly is the car bigger? Why is BMW butchering their brand by making the 5 and 3 series so dam large? Who is it appealing to? Am I part of that demographic? I am not, and the direction of the 991 does not appeal to me at all, which is why I bought the 981 generation of the Cayman as opposed to a 991 and a 997 iteration of the 911.
I'm not sure why cars seem to get bigger with each new generation. Maybe it's because people are getting bigger with each new generation.
12-15-2016, 11:36 AM
#21
Drifting
I get what you're saying but that's not really helpful. Old threads are old, based on old information and based on input from a set group of users in the past. There is more mileage now for both cars, new experiences, new people and perspectives that could provide additional benefit and more complete knowledge. For instance I got myself back into a 997 very recently despite having the funds for a new 991. My reasons are personal, unique from others and maybe they will resonate with the OP so I'll offer my perspective:
In my view, the 991 is a better looking car from 2 angles: the back, and the front. I love the wider stance and the curvier rear and headlamp angles. However, the 997 to me looks better from the side due to its smaller size.
When the 991 first came out, I thought "wow that's a great looking car." As time went on, my views started changing. Part of this had to do with the fact that I started seeing Panameras everywhere. I wasn't sure if the Panamera was the 4-door version of the 991, or if the 991 was the 2-door version of the Panamera. It wasn't just the looks, it was the interior. Yes, the 991 interior is "nice", but it all felt very Panamera to me. And I don't think the 991 interior even comes close to offerings from Mercedes BMW or Audi, so it started feeling a bit like a half-arsed effort at luxury. If you want to be blown away, step inside a new E class or S class, OMG those are nice cars.
And why is the 991 so large? I mean who is the market for these things? I think the answer is obvious - middle aged men who want to "feel" fast but don't want to commit to actually being "fast." Make no mistake, the 991 is faster. In the S trim or Turbo, it is very quick. But it is NOT faster because of the "nicer" interior or the larger body. It is due to drivetrain/engine improvements and lighter weight. If Porsche had made similar improvements on a smaller chassis, I believe the car would be even quicker than it is now. But being quick and being an actual sports car are no longer the priority (and probably have not been for quite some time for Porsche). There is now equal importance on comfort and luxury and having things like heated seats and quiet fuel efficient engines.
So the problem is, the 991 has a worse interior than a MUCH CHEAPER E-class, and is slower than other similar cars. It's become a "jack of all trades but master of none", so hey, if it's going to go down that road, it'd better have some significant emotional appeal. Yes, it is fun to drive, but is a PDK 991 truly more fun than a manual Boxster or even a Miata or S2000 or a 3 series? Honestly, is it?
Obviously the 997 is also a "compromise" car, with navigation, heated seats and leather interiors and those back seats. But to me the 991 was just a step too far. The 996 has the IMS issues and the 993 is a bit too old for me.
Porsche's flagship will NEVER again be a 2-seat sports car. The market has spoken and it is too small. Porsche cars will only continue to get longer and larger and more "luxed" out. We are going to see hybrid engines and more electronic assists than ever. This is not because it makes the car better. It is because it is what more people want to buy and because regulations demand it.
The 997 for me was an emotional decision, based on my love of the brand and love for sports cars. I also bought a Cayman because I have a thing for 2-seaters. I don't care about "nice" leather and I would prefer having manual roll-down windows if they still made those. Those days are long gone now.
In my view, the 991 is a better looking car from 2 angles: the back, and the front. I love the wider stance and the curvier rear and headlamp angles. However, the 997 to me looks better from the side due to its smaller size.
When the 991 first came out, I thought "wow that's a great looking car." As time went on, my views started changing. Part of this had to do with the fact that I started seeing Panameras everywhere. I wasn't sure if the Panamera was the 4-door version of the 991, or if the 991 was the 2-door version of the Panamera. It wasn't just the looks, it was the interior. Yes, the 991 interior is "nice", but it all felt very Panamera to me. And I don't think the 991 interior even comes close to offerings from Mercedes BMW or Audi, so it started feeling a bit like a half-arsed effort at luxury. If you want to be blown away, step inside a new E class or S class, OMG those are nice cars.
And why is the 991 so large? I mean who is the market for these things? I think the answer is obvious - middle aged men who want to "feel" fast but don't want to commit to actually being "fast." Make no mistake, the 991 is faster. In the S trim or Turbo, it is very quick. But it is NOT faster because of the "nicer" interior or the larger body. It is due to drivetrain/engine improvements and lighter weight. If Porsche had made similar improvements on a smaller chassis, I believe the car would be even quicker than it is now. But being quick and being an actual sports car are no longer the priority (and probably have not been for quite some time for Porsche). There is now equal importance on comfort and luxury and having things like heated seats and quiet fuel efficient engines.
So the problem is, the 991 has a worse interior than a MUCH CHEAPER E-class, and is slower than other similar cars. It's become a "jack of all trades but master of none", so hey, if it's going to go down that road, it'd better have some significant emotional appeal. Yes, it is fun to drive, but is a PDK 991 truly more fun than a manual Boxster or even a Miata or S2000 or a 3 series? Honestly, is it?
Obviously the 997 is also a "compromise" car, with navigation, heated seats and leather interiors and those back seats. But to me the 991 was just a step too far. The 996 has the IMS issues and the 993 is a bit too old for me.
Porsche's flagship will NEVER again be a 2-seat sports car. The market has spoken and it is too small. Porsche cars will only continue to get longer and larger and more "luxed" out. We are going to see hybrid engines and more electronic assists than ever. This is not because it makes the car better. It is because it is what more people want to buy and because regulations demand it.
The 997 for me was an emotional decision, based on my love of the brand and love for sports cars. I also bought a Cayman because I have a thing for 2-seaters. I don't care about "nice" leather and I would prefer having manual roll-down windows if they still made those. Those days are long gone now.
I'd like to add a little more to this debate.... 
Is the 991 really that much "bigger"? I hear this as a complaint about the 991 on a regular basis. But how much bigger is it, really? I went from a 997 turbo cabriolet to a 991 turbo s cabriolet. The 991 is 1.1" longer than the 997, 1.1" wider, 0.2" lower and weighs 133 lbs. less. Is that really bigger? Not by much....
My 997 was just as comfortable and luxurious as my 991. It had heated seats. It had a quiet, fuel efficient engine. This "softening" of the original 911 concept isn't new to the 991 series cars.
I don't bring this up to bash the 997 or to praise the 991. I only bring it up to point out that many of the things that we criticize in the 991 are also present in the 997, and even the 996. The 997 isn't as far from the 996 as many people assume, and the 991 isn't as far from the 997 as many people assume.
Porsche has done a masterful job over the years of making incremental improvements to the best sports car the money can buy.
Is the 991 really that much "bigger"? I hear this as a complaint about the 991 on a regular basis. But how much bigger is it, really? I went from a 997 turbo cabriolet to a 991 turbo s cabriolet. The 991 is 1.1" longer than the 997, 1.1" wider, 0.2" lower and weighs 133 lbs. less. Is that really bigger? Not by much....
My 997 was just as comfortable and luxurious as my 991. It had heated seats. It had a quiet, fuel efficient engine. This "softening" of the original 911 concept isn't new to the 991 series cars.
I don't bring this up to bash the 997 or to praise the 991. I only bring it up to point out that many of the things that we criticize in the 991 are also present in the 997, and even the 996. The 997 isn't as far from the 996 as many people assume, and the 991 isn't as far from the 997 as many people assume.
Porsche has done a masterful job over the years of making incremental improvements to the best sports car the money can buy.
If you have trouble parking a 991 because its 1" wider, you need to find different parking. Honestly, 1" is a problem??
Because they have been sidetracked by the much rawer, analogue, more visceral feel of the 997
Perfect response......very well explained. I sometimes, after seeing a 4-5 yr old thread or question would prefer to find a more current perspective.
I don't understand why the typical response is generally "search is your friend" or something similar.
This should be a community to help others and if someone is new to the brand, what's really with a newer version of an older question?
I don't understand why the typical response is generally "search is your friend" or something similar.
This should be a community to help others and if someone is new to the brand, what's really with a newer version of an older question?
If someone is new then they should take the time to do a search and find out whats already on here not just "fire away". If they then have additional questions, comments etc, then cool. In some ways I think it is a matter of respecting the guys who have been on here a long time. And searching for something IS the best initial advice.
This is a great community and guys will go to great lengths to help you and guys love to talk about their cars and will continually respond to the same questions over and over again.
If guys want to repeatedly ask the same questions over and over again (clearly without having gone to the effort to do a search), then we reserve the right to suggest what might be a more focused course of action, save them some time and get them the info they are after. It works, it really does
Cheers
PS, did I ask what the best oil is??
12-15-2016, 02:12 PM
#22
slightly off topic, but when doing comparisons, try changing from a 1986 Carrera to a 2009 Carrera. Everything is larger (interior cabin size and better forward visibility—you really know where your front tires are).
I suspect changing from the '86 Carrera to a 991 wouldn't seem that different than changing from the '86 Carrera to a 997.2.
I suspect changing from the '86 Carrera to a 991 wouldn't seem that different than changing from the '86 Carrera to a 997.2.
12-15-2016, 02:38 PM
#23
Honestly, I see no comparison. The 997 is much better looking and much more interesting as a sports car.
As a GT car, sure, maybe there are some advantages to the 991.
I just find it ugly.
And my initial impressions were actually MORE positive about the 991 than they are now. My wife comments on it too, that the 991 is not nearly as attractive from the back.
And this isn't because I own the 997. No bias involved -- I would swap to a 997 OR 991 GT3 very quickly. But for the Carrera models, no way...
As a GT car, sure, maybe there are some advantages to the 991.
I just find it ugly.
And my initial impressions were actually MORE positive about the 991 than they are now. My wife comments on it too, that the 991 is not nearly as attractive from the back.
And this isn't because I own the 997. No bias involved -- I would swap to a 997 OR 991 GT3 very quickly. But for the Carrera models, no way...
12-15-2016, 02:45 PM
#24
Oh, and in terms of the topic being repetitive... we need this on the board. In fact, my impression of the 991 today vs. before has only grown more negative. Usually it is the other way around, where I start to appreciate aspects of a newer design and become more acclimated.
The opposite has happened. I feel more strongly that I would never consider a shift into a 991(.1 or .2) unless it is the GT3. I have also now had the opportunity to drive several 991s and my car just feels so much more of an "experience" when I get back in it, that I have absolutely no interest in making the switch.
To make my opinion more controversial, I will guess (my view only!) that most who like the 991 over the 997 are focused on:
1.) Newness (need to have the new toy, and need for others to know it)
2.) Comfort/Luxury
As a car enthusiast, hard to relate to either of those. The third that I can relate to is the performance difference. In the 991.1 version it is one of, if not the, smallest differences between generations I've ever seen. Very little performance improvement overall. In the .2, there is a much bigger jump up in performance, but only after the introduction of turbos...
Just nothing compelling and I would wager that in 10 years 997 (I will say .2s in particular, if only because of perceptions around IMS risk) will eclipse the 991 or 991.2 in value for equivalent mileage cars. It will be a small gap for sure, but it will reflect where the enthusiasts will put their $$$ (993s and 997s).
The opposite has happened. I feel more strongly that I would never consider a shift into a 991(.1 or .2) unless it is the GT3. I have also now had the opportunity to drive several 991s and my car just feels so much more of an "experience" when I get back in it, that I have absolutely no interest in making the switch.
To make my opinion more controversial, I will guess (my view only!) that most who like the 991 over the 997 are focused on:
1.) Newness (need to have the new toy, and need for others to know it)
2.) Comfort/Luxury
As a car enthusiast, hard to relate to either of those. The third that I can relate to is the performance difference. In the 991.1 version it is one of, if not the, smallest differences between generations I've ever seen. Very little performance improvement overall. In the .2, there is a much bigger jump up in performance, but only after the introduction of turbos...
Just nothing compelling and I would wager that in 10 years 997 (I will say .2s in particular, if only because of perceptions around IMS risk) will eclipse the 991 or 991.2 in value for equivalent mileage cars. It will be a small gap for sure, but it will reflect where the enthusiasts will put their $$$ (993s and 997s).
12-15-2016, 03:09 PM
#25
There is one thing I do like about the 997 - the upright seating position ( which is similar to previous versions) looking essentially down over the hood of the car ( love the view). In the 991, I feel I am sitting on the floor and looking up, out of the car with a less desirable view of the road outside. The front fenders look more in the direction of an LMP race car to me. For me, sitting in the driver's seat, this is what I noticed the most.
12-15-2016, 03:59 PM
#27
Drifting
12-15-2016, 04:11 PM
#28
Sir Thomas Lord of All Mets Fans
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
12-15-2016, 04:17 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
The 991 is not appreciably bigger in any objective way. People want it to be as a reason as to why they would never ever ever buy a 991 and therefore in their minds it is. But its not
If you have trouble parking a 991 because its 1" wider, you need to find different parking. Honestly, 1" is a problem??
The top results are all over a year old. On the first page of results, only TWO are within a (2) year window. The remainder are from 2013 or earlier. My guess is, more recent attempts at discussion have been met with the same "oh here we go ahead /close thread" attitude. You do have a back button.
12-15-2016, 04:38 PM
#30
Rocky Mountain High
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I can certainly see why you view it that way. In many cases, it's probably true. I think lots of people want the newest version of the car, and they don't care as much about performance, Porsche heritage, etc. It's not true of everyone though. I place a high value on performance and handling. The 991.1 turbo is in a completely different category than the 997.1 turbo when it comes to performance. There are still some of us out there who appreciate things other than newness or comfort/luxury.