991 vs 997?
12-15-2016, 04:56 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
12-15-2016, 05:17 PM
#32
I can certainly see why you view it that way. In many cases, it's probably true. I think lots of people want the newest version of the car, and they don't care as much about performance, Porsche heritage, etc. It's not true of everyone though. I place a high value on performance and handling. The 991.1 turbo is in a completely different category than the 997.1 turbo when it comes to performance. There are still some of us out there who appreciate things other than newness or comfort/luxury.
For me it is really the carreras that I don't like, and mostly due to that creased rear end... I'm "all about that back" and I guess I can't look at either a C2S or C4S 991 and not feel it looks much less appealing than my car. I also prefer how mine drives but I have not driven the new turbo.
I would get a 991 GT3 if I could convince myself to give up my car but I just can't come up with a good reason yet, despite the obvious performance step up.
12-15-2016, 06:01 PM
#33
Rocky Mountain High
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I know what you mean about appreciating the rear view of a car, especially a 911. I thought my 996 C4S had an especially sexy rear end....
12-15-2016, 06:03 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
In case you are interested, take a look at Porsche's annual report.
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/annual-report/en.html
Interesting takeaways:
1) Cayenne sales are higher than 911 + Cayman + Boxster combined
2) Macan sales are higher than 911 + Cayman + Boxster combined
3) Looking at the section on the 911, there is a huge 2 page slide on the future of electronic/hybrid technology.
Looking further at the section on the 911, they list the "Eight facets" of the 911. The full list is:
1) Turbo Engine
2) Efficiency and Emissions (WHY IS THIS #2???)
3) Chassis (sounded good until the part about "improved comfort")
4) Driving Performance (this was fine)
5) Driving Experience (fine)
6) Everyday Usability (a long spiel about "suitable for families" and "is there a better family car?")
7) Design
8) Emotion
The scariest part is how about half the annual report (non-financial, management discussion) is focused on electronic cars. There is even a section titled "Mission E - The Future of Porsche."
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/annual-report/en.html
Interesting takeaways:
1) Cayenne sales are higher than 911 + Cayman + Boxster combined
2) Macan sales are higher than 911 + Cayman + Boxster combined
3) Looking at the section on the 911, there is a huge 2 page slide on the future of electronic/hybrid technology.
Looking further at the section on the 911, they list the "Eight facets" of the 911. The full list is:
1) Turbo Engine
2) Efficiency and Emissions (WHY IS THIS #2???)
3) Chassis (sounded good until the part about "improved comfort")
4) Driving Performance (this was fine)
5) Driving Experience (fine)
6) Everyday Usability (a long spiel about "suitable for families" and "is there a better family car?")
7) Design
8) Emotion
The scariest part is how about half the annual report (non-financial, management discussion) is focused on electronic cars. There is even a section titled "Mission E - The Future of Porsche."
12-15-2016, 06:57 PM
#36
Three Wheelin'
Those headlights are the deal breaker for me......I have zero interest in the 991....truly zero! And to me it seems too big as well. I dislike the interior too.
Personally, I own my last Porsche so it really doesn't matter what direction Porsche decides to go but as a long time fan of the brand I'm very disappointed.
Tom
Personally, I own my last Porsche so it really doesn't matter what direction Porsche decides to go but as a long time fan of the brand I'm very disappointed.
Tom
Insofar as the 997 v. 991 question, well, I was waiting at the dealer for servicing to be done and the used car manager, who wanted to buy my car, gave me a 991.1S to test drive (I wasn't selling him my car but wanted to give the 991 a try). My very subjective, and probably not very helpful opinion was this: The 991.1 was technically better and probably just as fast (or faster) than my GTS; the thing is, when I drive my GTS 997 the car is part of me, in the 991 I felt more like a passenger - much the same way as I feel when I drive my wife's S3. I might be able to get past that - but at the end of the day I won't spend 991 money on something that my eye/brain doesn't make me think is drop dead gorgeous, regardless of how it performs. (And if all I cared about was performance I'd buy a 'Vette and save $70+K)
12-15-2016, 07:08 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
The 2 is 177.1 x 71.2 (mirrors folded)
So the 4 is 1.7" wider.
Interestingly, the BMW 5 series family boat is 73.2" with mirrors folded. The 991 is only .3" narrower than a modern 5 series. Let that sink in.
Last edited by caymannyc; 12-15-2016 at 07:25 PM.
12-15-2016, 07:34 PM
#38
Drifting
It's closer to 2". I know the 991 "apologists" (just poking fun) like to compare the 997.2 to the 991.1. The 991.2 is about half an inch wider and longer than the 991.1 which was over an inch wider and longer than the 997.2. Sports cars and especially race cars live and die by smaller adjustments to wheel bases and cambers and tiny bits of tuning. If you were to make even a 1/4" change to the wheelbase of a F1 car you could completely ruin it. Seeing as how you feel that anywhere from a 1.5"-2" difference both length and width wise apparently means nothing to a 911 anymore, I guess that just confirms the car is not meant to be driven hard at all, but is designed to keep overweight men "feeling" nice and comfortable so they can pretend to be fast cruising down the interstate?
I just googled "997 vs 991 rennlist".
The top results are all over a year old. On the first page of results, only TWO are within a (2) year window. The remainder are from 2013 or earlier. My guess is, more recent attempts at discussion have been met with the same "oh here we go ahead /close thread" attitude. You do have a back button.
I just googled "997 vs 991 rennlist".
The top results are all over a year old. On the first page of results, only TWO are within a (2) year window. The remainder are from 2013 or earlier. My guess is, more recent attempts at discussion have been met with the same "oh here we go ahead /close thread" attitude. You do have a back button.
A 991 is faster and a better performer than a 997 period. Whether youre skinny or fat or do/do not want to take advantage of that is up to you. But the facts are clear
There have been plenty of discussions on this topic and I have read nothing new here on this one. People love giving their personal experiences even if they are just a rehash of the last guys views said in a different way. In fact they are rarely met with "here we go again". People love to hear themselves type
12-15-2016, 08:17 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Comparing an F1 car to a 997 or 991 is pointless don't u think?
A 991 is faster and a better performer than a 997 period. Whether youre skinny or fat or do/do not want to take advantage of that is up to you. But the facts are clear
There have been plenty of discussions on this topic and I have read nothing new here on this one. People love giving their personal experiences even if they are just a rehash of the last guys views said in a different way. In fact they are rarely met with "here we go again". People love to hear themselves type
A 991 is faster and a better performer than a 997 period. Whether youre skinny or fat or do/do not want to take advantage of that is up to you. But the facts are clear
There have been plenty of discussions on this topic and I have read nothing new here on this one. People love giving their personal experiences even if they are just a rehash of the last guys views said in a different way. In fact they are rarely met with "here we go again". People love to hear themselves type
And yes F1 is an extreme example, so lets use GT race cars like the Porsches Cup cars or something as mundane as the Toyota Supras I used to race or a GTI. 1" in wheebase is an eternity for any car being driven hard.
Might as well delete rennlist from the internet since most topics have already been discussed. Are you the type that tells people to "google it" when someone asks you a question?
This is a community, and members of a community like to talk (type) about the shared thing we love. The great thing about the internet is, you dont have to read what you don't want. Since you clearly think this thread is pointless, I just need to ask why are you still here? Does it matter? I don't judge.
12-15-2016, 09:17 PM
#41
To be honest the 997 feels large to me. Make the current 991 1" wider and it will have trouble fitting into certain parking spots. But besides all that, you just got to ask, why exactly is the car bigger? Why is BMW butchering their brand by making the 5 and 3 series so dam large? Who is it appealing to?
Extensive market research has shown consistently that has people grow...larger, they want a car that makes them feel good about themselves.
Putting a fatty in a tiny car makes them feel large and, well, fat. But putting the chubby one in a big expansive car, and it makes them feel teeny and skinnier and sexier.
And hey, it beats going to the gym.
That is why cars keep getting bigger. Because people do.
12-15-2016, 09:33 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
12-15-2016, 09:42 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Fat people, particularly Americans.
Extensive market research has shown consistently that has people grow...larger, they want a car that makes them feel good about themselves.
Putting a fatty in a tiny car makes them feel large and, well, fat. But putting the chubby one in a big expansive car, and it makes them feel teeny and skinnier and sexier.
And hey, it beats going to the gym.
That is why cars keep getting bigger. Because people do.
Extensive market research has shown consistently that has people grow...larger, they want a car that makes them feel good about themselves.
Putting a fatty in a tiny car makes them feel large and, well, fat. But putting the chubby one in a big expansive car, and it makes them feel teeny and skinnier and sexier.
And hey, it beats going to the gym.
That is why cars keep getting bigger. Because people do.
What is interesting is that in market discussions in Porsche's public filings, you see heavy discussions on sales of the 911/GT3 etc in Europe and Asia, in places like Switzerland and France. In the US its all about the Macan and the Cayenne. I wonder how much US sales are impacting overall Porsche strategy, it is the largest auto market in the world by far.
Its actually even more interesting when you consider that a smaller car with the same technology would be even more fuel efficient. With all the emphasis on emissions and smaller engines, why do the cars keep getting bigger!!
12-15-2016, 10:04 PM
#44
Three Wheelin'
And why is the 991 so large? I mean who is the market for these things? I think the answer is obvious - middle aged men who want to "feel" fast but don't want to commit to actually being "fast." Make no mistake, the 991 is faster. In the S trim or Turbo, it is very quick. But it is NOT faster because of the "nicer" interior or the larger body. It is due to drivetrain/engine improvements and lighter weight. If Porsche had made similar improvements on a smaller chassis, I believe the car would be even quicker than it is now. But being quick and being an actual sports car are no longer the priority (and probably have not been for quite some time for Porsche). There is now equal importance on comfort and luxury and having things like heated seats and quiet fuel efficient engines.
12-15-2016, 10:23 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
I'm not sure you're wrong overall, but I wouldn't stereotype the idea of middle age men who want to feel fast without committing to being fast as being who PAG is marketing to. The answer was foretold many years ago when the head of PAG was talking about increasing production of the 911 (and why not considering the profit per unit). You can increase production all you like but how are you going to maintain the Brand and bring in new customers. PAG (VWAG) would not make a profit if it relied on enthusiasts to buy their cars - seems like they tried that model and it almost bankrupted them. So they turn a 911 into a comfy GT car that appeals to a broader section of the market with a lot of disposable income (and they push leasing pretty hard - without offering really competitive rates). It's still a pretty fast car but plenty comfortable too (with the added benefit of being much more stable and less likely to kill you if you drive beyond your limits), and the name comes with a pedigree. At the same time they jack up the price because it is a time tested paradigm that people equate quality with price. Like I said earlier, my GTS 997 is my last Porsche, unless they make the lines (rear quarter panel) on the Cayman a little sleeker - which would be intriguing.