A place to discuss all things ADM
#3361
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It is such an interesting situation. In full disclosure, have been hoping for prices to come down so that I can buy one. On the one hand, prices for cars sold on BaT have been very resiliant at around $80-90k for a Touring. On the other hand, 4 months ago, the asking prices for a GT3 (on Autotrader/Cars.com/Etc) were in the high $200s/low $300s and now there are examples in the $250-260k range. These are still well above sticker though. That being said, none of them are in a spec that I want - Touring, manual, Black/Agate, no yellow seat belts, and a somewhat modest color interior (not red)... so that doesn't help...
Eye opening to me was when I went looking at 991.2 Tourings and found that those prices were also $70k or so above MSRP.... Prices for many other makes and models still have ADMs. But dealer lots used to be empty, and now they aren't. Carmax blew up. A new M3 had a markup a few months ago and now they can be had at MSRP. Basically data points for whatever side you want to take.
992.2 GT3 will come out with an ADM and will also likely be $10-20k more expensive that the 992.1 on MSRP. How much cheaper "should" the 992.1 be at that point? Assume a $200k build on a 992.1 translates to $220k for the 992.2. ADM lower, but still elevated - $75k. That car is now a $295k car. How much should the equivalent spec 992.1 be? How much less would you spend forthe last gen? $75k like the 992.1 vs 991.2 delta is today? If you agree, the price on the 992.1 you bought at $300k ($100k ADM) is now 225k, a decline of 25%, and around MSRP in 2 years. So that sucks, BUT you can probably trade it in for a 992.2 allocation at or close to MSRP... So a silver lining of sorts.
Lastly, if we really do hit a recession and the market tanks - while ADMs may go away, your savings just tanked 20% too...
Anyway, just thinking out loud and probably not adding much to the conversation
Thanks for all the chat so far - has been a fun read...
Eye opening to me was when I went looking at 991.2 Tourings and found that those prices were also $70k or so above MSRP.... Prices for many other makes and models still have ADMs. But dealer lots used to be empty, and now they aren't. Carmax blew up. A new M3 had a markup a few months ago and now they can be had at MSRP. Basically data points for whatever side you want to take.
992.2 GT3 will come out with an ADM and will also likely be $10-20k more expensive that the 992.1 on MSRP. How much cheaper "should" the 992.1 be at that point? Assume a $200k build on a 992.1 translates to $220k for the 992.2. ADM lower, but still elevated - $75k. That car is now a $295k car. How much should the equivalent spec 992.1 be? How much less would you spend forthe last gen? $75k like the 992.1 vs 991.2 delta is today? If you agree, the price on the 992.1 you bought at $300k ($100k ADM) is now 225k, a decline of 25%, and around MSRP in 2 years. So that sucks, BUT you can probably trade it in for a 992.2 allocation at or close to MSRP... So a silver lining of sorts.
Lastly, if we really do hit a recession and the market tanks - while ADMs may go away, your savings just tanked 20% too...
Anyway, just thinking out loud and probably not adding much to the conversation
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#3362
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I know you started buying Porsche GT cars in the mid 2010s and now have a solid connection to get more cars at MSRP. For a lot of others who don't have that privilege, I can tell you it's not that easy. I think ADM paying enthusiasts who really want this car to enjoy aren't particularly proud of paying ADM, but it's a necessarily evil if you want a GT3 anytime soon.
I paid a 15k ADM for my GT4. Am I proud of it? Absolutely not. But to me, it was either pay ADM for a guarantee or risk missing out on the chance of getting the car to my exact liking. Now that I have the car and actually get to drive/enjoy it, the sting of ADM has worn off.
I am shopping for a new DD and have interest in a Golf R. Have reached out to nearly 20 dealers in my region. All either have double digit wait lists for MSRP or 5-15k ADM. I won't feel like I'm missing out if I don't get a new Golf R, so I'm not paying ADM. But that's just the reality of the situation. If I want one, I prolly need to accept the current conditions and pony up. Several dealers with wait lists said they won't even take my name because their lists are too long.
I paid a 15k ADM for my GT4. Am I proud of it? Absolutely not. But to me, it was either pay ADM for a guarantee or risk missing out on the chance of getting the car to my exact liking. Now that I have the car and actually get to drive/enjoy it, the sting of ADM has worn off.
I am shopping for a new DD and have interest in a Golf R. Have reached out to nearly 20 dealers in my region. All either have double digit wait lists for MSRP or 5-15k ADM. I won't feel like I'm missing out if I don't get a new Golf R, so I'm not paying ADM. But that's just the reality of the situation. If I want one, I prolly need to accept the current conditions and pony up. Several dealers with wait lists said they won't even take my name because their lists are too long.
#3363
Burning Brakes
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Just flipped my 22’ GT4 to my dealer at a few thousand over my cost / he now has it listed for sale at $25,000 over my sale price. But I got a msrp allocation for a T eventually which works for me and him. Saves me selling the car, I deduct the trade in value of the GT car from the cost of the 911 T saving me a ton of sales tax and I get a car I think will be more to my liking.
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#3364
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Therosser77 (12-03-2022)
#3365
Burning Brakes
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What are odds that these auctions have shill bidders?
I would say very high. Why would any informed buyer not just work the near 100 GT3’s on cars.com for a good price? And if you buy as a certified used car from a Porsche dealer you will get an extension of the factory warranty.
also likely a lot of the used cars on Cars.com are near you so you could actually look at the car before spending $250.000.
A reasonable price is $25,000 over msrp as I know I could recently have had an allocation on a GT3 at under $50,000. Paying $25,000 over for a car you drive home immediately though used - and could have been abused - is such a small number that it is irrelevant unlike $100,000 which is too risky for me anyway.
I would say very high. Why would any informed buyer not just work the near 100 GT3’s on cars.com for a good price? And if you buy as a certified used car from a Porsche dealer you will get an extension of the factory warranty.
also likely a lot of the used cars on Cars.com are near you so you could actually look at the car before spending $250.000.
A reasonable price is $25,000 over msrp as I know I could recently have had an allocation on a GT3 at under $50,000. Paying $25,000 over for a car you drive home immediately though used - and could have been abused - is such a small number that it is irrelevant unlike $100,000 which is too risky for me anyway.
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#3366
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Just flipped my 22’ GT4 to my dealer at a few thousand over my cost / he now has it listed for sale at $25,000 over my sale price. But I got a msrp allocation for a T eventually which works for me and him. Saves me selling the car, I deduct the trade in value of the GT car from the cost of the 911 T saving me a ton of sales tax and I get a car I think will be more to my liking.
Last edited by WCGhost; 12-03-2022 at 10:34 PM.
#3367
Race Car
#3368
Race Car
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What are odds that these auctions have shill bidders?
I would say very high. Why would any informed buyer not just work the near 100 GT3’s on cars.com for a good price? And if you buy as a certified used car from a Porsche dealer you will get an extension of the factory warranty.
I would say very high. Why would any informed buyer not just work the near 100 GT3’s on cars.com for a good price? And if you buy as a certified used car from a Porsche dealer you will get an extension of the factory warranty.
I watched it real-time and the car sold for $92,000 over MSRP.
2022 Porsche 911 GT3 Touring for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $286,000 on December 2, 2022 (Lot #92,313) | Bring a Trailer
The seller commented that "someone is going home with this today" . . . implying that the reserve was met. That was around the $250,000 mark.
From that point on, there were 5 bidders still bidding for this GT3. Are you trying to claim that "shill" bidders took this car up an additional $36,000 ?
I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all.
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neoprufrok (12-05-2022)
#3369
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This is the lowest price i've seen on a car that is on the ground, looks like it was recently sold.
Last edited by WCGhost; 12-04-2022 at 04:40 AM.
#3370
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This would have been in my garage if it had buckets. Used 2022 Porsche 911 GT3 for $249991 on Autotrader http://atcm.co/S2PVDP/27ABEFF9 ( Search continues… )
Last edited by Scottykenneth; 12-04-2022 at 08:30 AM.
#3371
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We had out of town guests this weekend. They're both car people and have done a few track days, but never owned Porsches. Took him out to test drive my 991.1 GT3, 991.2 C4S PDK cab, 997.1 C2S manual, and 981 GT4 (manual), in that order. He pushed the cars pretty well when possible. He agreed with my assessments, ranking the 997 as the most fun as a road car. I think people who are paying big dollars for a 992 GT3 manual touring as a road car are really missing the mark, you could be getting a funner 911 for a fraction of the cost. I may buy another 997.
Since Porsche allocations for sports cars are so hard to get these days and ADMs are crazy, the M4 competition has caught my eye as a possible track car - it's about as fast as the 991.1 GT3 and 718 GT4, and less than $100k brand new.
Since Porsche allocations for sports cars are so hard to get these days and ADMs are crazy, the M4 competition has caught my eye as a possible track car - it's about as fast as the 991.1 GT3 and 718 GT4, and less than $100k brand new.
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#3372
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[QUOTE=Manifold;18498239
Since Porsche allocations for sports cars are so hard to get these days and ADMs are crazy, the M4 competition has caught my eye as a possible track car - it's about as fast as the 991.1 GT3 and 718 GT4, and less than $100k brand new.[/QUOTE]
BMWs are competent but desirable? And they are lardy.
Since Porsche allocations for sports cars are so hard to get these days and ADMs are crazy, the M4 competition has caught my eye as a possible track car - it's about as fast as the 991.1 GT3 and 718 GT4, and less than $100k brand new.[/QUOTE]
BMWs are competent but desirable? And they are lardy.
#3373
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#3374
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It is such an interesting situation. In full disclosure, have been hoping for prices to come down so that I can buy one. On the one hand, prices for cars sold on BaT have been very resiliant at around $80-90k for a Touring. On the other hand, 4 months ago, the asking prices for a GT3 (on Autotrader/Cars.com/Etc) were in the high $200s/low $300s and now there are examples in the $250-260k range. These are still well above sticker though. That being said, none of them are in a spec that I want - Touring, manual, Black/Agate, no yellow seat belts, and a somewhat modest color interior (not red)... so that doesn't help...
Eye opening to me was when I went looking at 991.2 Tourings and found that those prices were also $70k or so above MSRP.... Prices for many other makes and models still have ADMs. But dealer lots used to be empty, and now they aren't. Carmax blew up. A new M3 had a markup a few months ago and now they can be had at MSRP. Basically data points for whatever side you want to take.
992.2 GT3 will come out with an ADM and will also likely be $10-20k more expensive that the 992.1 on MSRP. How much cheaper "should" the 992.1 be at that point? Assume a $200k build on a 992.1 translates to $220k for the 992.2. ADM lower, but still elevated - $75k. That car is now a $295k car. How much should the equivalent spec 992.1 be? How much less would you spend forthe last gen? $75k like the 992.1 vs 991.2 delta is today? If you agree, the price on the 992.1 you bought at $300k ($100k ADM) is now 225k, a decline of 25%, and around MSRP in 2 years. So that sucks, BUT you can probably trade it in for a 992.2 allocation at or close to MSRP... So a silver lining of sorts.
Lastly, if we really do hit a recession and the market tanks - while ADMs may go away, your savings just tanked 20% too...
Anyway, just thinking out loud and probably not adding much to the conversation
Thanks for all the chat so far - has been a fun read...
Eye opening to me was when I went looking at 991.2 Tourings and found that those prices were also $70k or so above MSRP.... Prices for many other makes and models still have ADMs. But dealer lots used to be empty, and now they aren't. Carmax blew up. A new M3 had a markup a few months ago and now they can be had at MSRP. Basically data points for whatever side you want to take.
992.2 GT3 will come out with an ADM and will also likely be $10-20k more expensive that the 992.1 on MSRP. How much cheaper "should" the 992.1 be at that point? Assume a $200k build on a 992.1 translates to $220k for the 992.2. ADM lower, but still elevated - $75k. That car is now a $295k car. How much should the equivalent spec 992.1 be? How much less would you spend forthe last gen? $75k like the 992.1 vs 991.2 delta is today? If you agree, the price on the 992.1 you bought at $300k ($100k ADM) is now 225k, a decline of 25%, and around MSRP in 2 years. So that sucks, BUT you can probably trade it in for a 992.2 allocation at or close to MSRP... So a silver lining of sorts.
Lastly, if we really do hit a recession and the market tanks - while ADMs may go away, your savings just tanked 20% too...
Anyway, just thinking out loud and probably not adding much to the conversation
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Last edited by rodsky; 12-04-2022 at 02:33 PM.
#3375
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