Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
10-27-2013, 07:29 AM
#5656
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It's not really about levels, you could hit the wall at 50km/h and end up with a basal skull fracture if you're wearing a helmet.
Safety is a spectrum, it's a matter of finding where you feel comfortable in terms of safety, convenience, and cost. I had a chat to Steve R about HANS, he uses them when necessary but feels they're too inconvenient for casual track days; although a contributing factor was also "fitting in", so if more people used them he may feel different.
I think the US guys may overvalue 3 point belts. If you read around you'll find a lot of them suggest that it's not safe to run with a full harness unless you have a full cage due to the risk of neck damage from the roof collapsing in a roll over. It's hard to know without looking at numbers. Then there's the question of how extensive a cage you have, side and front intrusion design, etc.
It's true that once you're in a full harness, with a helmet on, you're much more exposed to a basal skull fracture unless you use a HANS or similar device. But are you more likely to have a front-rear hit vs a side hit that a HANS won't help with but a containment seat will? You're not really safe until you've done everything you can. But at any intermediate stage, should you use a HANS first, or a full containment/halo seat, or an integrated fire system, etc.? Depends on the type of accident you end up in, and the type of events you're attending.
Having said all that, I purchased a HANS-ready helmet with the intention of using a HANS eventually, but I need to replace my harness belts with HANS approved ones before that's possible. And then there's the question of whether I'll actually use it in the rush to get out on track for a run... I already don't use the balaclava nor any fireproof undergarments.
Safety is a spectrum, it's a matter of finding where you feel comfortable in terms of safety, convenience, and cost. I had a chat to Steve R about HANS, he uses them when necessary but feels they're too inconvenient for casual track days; although a contributing factor was also "fitting in", so if more people used them he may feel different.
I think the US guys may overvalue 3 point belts. If you read around you'll find a lot of them suggest that it's not safe to run with a full harness unless you have a full cage due to the risk of neck damage from the roof collapsing in a roll over. It's hard to know without looking at numbers. Then there's the question of how extensive a cage you have, side and front intrusion design, etc.
It's true that once you're in a full harness, with a helmet on, you're much more exposed to a basal skull fracture unless you use a HANS or similar device. But are you more likely to have a front-rear hit vs a side hit that a HANS won't help with but a containment seat will? You're not really safe until you've done everything you can. But at any intermediate stage, should you use a HANS first, or a full containment/halo seat, or an integrated fire system, etc.? Depends on the type of accident you end up in, and the type of events you're attending.
Having said all that, I purchased a HANS-ready helmet with the intention of using a HANS eventually, but I need to replace my harness belts with HANS approved ones before that's possible. And then there's the question of whether I'll actually use it in the rush to get out on track for a run... I already don't use the balaclava nor any fireproof undergarments.
10-27-2013, 07:46 AM
#5657
Rennlist Member
that thread makes interesting reading and i now understand why 5/6 point harnesses are banned for use during targa tour as no helmets or hans required...
10-27-2013, 07:57 AM
#5658
Rennlist Member
It's not really about levels, you could hit the wall at 50km/h and end up with a basal skull fracture if you're wearing a helmet.
Safety is a spectrum, it's a matter of finding where you feel comfortable in terms of safety, convenience, and cost. I had a chat to Steve R about HANS, he uses them when necessary but feels they're too inconvenient for casual track days; although a contributing factor was also "fitting in", so if more people used them he may feel different.
I think the US guys may overvalue 3 point belts. If you read around you'll find a lot of them suggest that it's not safe to run with a full harness unless you have a full cage due to the risk of neck damage from the roof collapsing in a roll over. It's hard to know without looking at numbers. Then there's the question of how extensive a cage you have, side and front intrusion design, etc.
It's true that once you're in a full harness, with a helmet on, you're much more exposed to a basal skull fracture unless you use a HANS or similar device. But are you more likely to have a front-rear hit vs a side hit that a HANS won't help with but a containment seat will? You're not really safe until you've done everything you can. But at any intermediate stage, should you use a HANS first, or a full containment/halo seat, or an integrated fire system, etc.? Depends on the type of accident you end up in, and the type of events you're attending.
Having said all that, I purchased a HANS-ready helmet with the intention of using a HANS eventually, but I need to replace my harness belts with HANS approved ones before that's possible. And then there's the question of whether I'll actually use it in the rush to get out on track for a run... I already don't use the balaclava nor any fireproof undergarments.
Safety is a spectrum, it's a matter of finding where you feel comfortable in terms of safety, convenience, and cost. I had a chat to Steve R about HANS, he uses them when necessary but feels they're too inconvenient for casual track days; although a contributing factor was also "fitting in", so if more people used them he may feel different.
I think the US guys may overvalue 3 point belts. If you read around you'll find a lot of them suggest that it's not safe to run with a full harness unless you have a full cage due to the risk of neck damage from the roof collapsing in a roll over. It's hard to know without looking at numbers. Then there's the question of how extensive a cage you have, side and front intrusion design, etc.
It's true that once you're in a full harness, with a helmet on, you're much more exposed to a basal skull fracture unless you use a HANS or similar device. But are you more likely to have a front-rear hit vs a side hit that a HANS won't help with but a containment seat will? You're not really safe until you've done everything you can. But at any intermediate stage, should you use a HANS first, or a full containment/halo seat, or an integrated fire system, etc.? Depends on the type of accident you end up in, and the type of events you're attending.
Having said all that, I purchased a HANS-ready helmet with the intention of using a HANS eventually, but I need to replace my harness belts with HANS approved ones before that's possible. And then there's the question of whether I'll actually use it in the rush to get out on track for a run... I already don't use the balaclava nor any fireproof undergarments.
Im happy with the half cage and race seat with three point belt. Adding the hardness bar and harness would not be hard or expensive but its more junk in the car for 90% of the tie ts driven and those items cant be used (like road and targa). Both my helmets are hans ready but personally I feel I will just take my chances. As I say there is probably more risk going to the shops for me in any case. I may be an idiot but Im prepared to live with a bit more danger in my life than most. I dont have any kids dependent on my buck for a feed or education and being a type A personality I find my brain and body are quicker when there is an element of risk involved. I think Darwin had a phrase for this. I do accept accidents out of ones control can happen...
10-27-2013, 06:26 PM
#5662
Rennlist Member
A serious topic though. I read a lot about the instructor death in Queensland. That and the fact that life insurance often excludes Motorsport activities including time trials brings home that our hobby has some risks.
Until the NITT I was running with a 10-yr old $100 helmet. Now I'm starting to push my personal envelope I'm going to have more offs and I'm glad I have better head protection. Better seats are next then a way to hold me in. The Hans has its limitations but I need to protect what feeds and houses my family i.e. my income so spending a bit more makes sense.
Just not sure which way to go. I like the Heigo cages but right now I don't understand why rollover is seen as a bigger issue that holding bodies and heads in the car. I'd like to be educated.
10-27-2013, 09:21 PM
#5663
Rennlist Member
John. Good thinking. Heres my 2 cents.
You shouldn't increase your change of an off by becoming quicker and more confident on track, but you do increase the potential for injury with speed and lateral G if something should go wrong. You shouldn't be coming off the track more as a result of experience, quite the opposite. That said, the assumption is your car is set up and handling well in first instance.
Helmet. I have a new full face Snell SA2010 HJC and a much much cheaper new Bell Mag2 open face SA2010. Both are drilled for HANS and both are certified good until 2020 (the mazimum time currently available).
IMHO the Bell Sport Mag2 open face is all you need. Its a long standing DE and motorsport staple. Its conformable, light and allows you ventilation and the ability to speak with and instructor and more importantly for me hear better whats going on around you. Even better is its only $239 USD!
I used in on the NITT and wont go back.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Sport-M...293db5&vxp=mtr
On to the next one. Half cage. I only put this in for Targa where coming of the road and down a bank is a very real possibility. Apart from that it serves primarily to reduce the chances on track of the roof caving in. Ive been in an accident where I was hit an immovable object as a fast speed and I can tell you teh A pillar shifted 20cm closer to me, the gearbox pushed my seat side up 6cm and the roof buckled and Veed inwards 15cm. According to the crash investigator of course. I wasn't driving just passenger. Yes we were young! Learning to drive on Titirangi & Waitakere roads had the odd downside, like when you got it wrong! Back to the point, the half cage will prevent the rood concertinaing. Apart from that the removable Heigo half cage is just plain sexy in a "hot rod serious street legal Porsche nut case kinda way"- you have to admit!
If you want to be truly safe you need a full cage with door protection. If you were on Targa Comp youd probably want a damn good window net too. Good seats, harness bar, 6 point harness and Hans device with full helmet.
Depends where you are taking this John. It was never going to be cheap, your were never going to retain your life insurance and you will always be at risk of injury despite how much proetction you have. Our cars are road cars, I dont even think he 964s have an airbag system unlike the 993, 996 and all GT3 variants.
My thought are that you update your helmet. If you are concerned about the fire level afforded by your suit buy a three layer like many of use of use a nomex undergarment and balaclava (I have one never worn you can use). Get the car set up stable and safe and get a nice bucket seat. If you move to a harness bar given what we have read then do it only with 5/6 point system and Hans or not at all.
I just read the full article on Sean Edwards death whist as an instructor passenger in Australia during a Porsche driving day in a 996 at the hands of a 20 year old assumed novice driver? and looks like he may survive!. What an absolute shame, this Brit had real talent and a really big future ahead of him. To be honest I wonder how guys like Ray do it sitting in the car with some of us. Dangerous occupation. I believe however that Seans instant death was very unlucky - probably angle and side of impact etc
You shouldn't increase your change of an off by becoming quicker and more confident on track, but you do increase the potential for injury with speed and lateral G if something should go wrong. You shouldn't be coming off the track more as a result of experience, quite the opposite. That said, the assumption is your car is set up and handling well in first instance.
Helmet. I have a new full face Snell SA2010 HJC and a much much cheaper new Bell Mag2 open face SA2010. Both are drilled for HANS and both are certified good until 2020 (the mazimum time currently available).
IMHO the Bell Sport Mag2 open face is all you need. Its a long standing DE and motorsport staple. Its conformable, light and allows you ventilation and the ability to speak with and instructor and more importantly for me hear better whats going on around you. Even better is its only $239 USD!
I used in on the NITT and wont go back.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Sport-M...293db5&vxp=mtr
On to the next one. Half cage. I only put this in for Targa where coming of the road and down a bank is a very real possibility. Apart from that it serves primarily to reduce the chances on track of the roof caving in. Ive been in an accident where I was hit an immovable object as a fast speed and I can tell you teh A pillar shifted 20cm closer to me, the gearbox pushed my seat side up 6cm and the roof buckled and Veed inwards 15cm. According to the crash investigator of course. I wasn't driving just passenger. Yes we were young! Learning to drive on Titirangi & Waitakere roads had the odd downside, like when you got it wrong! Back to the point, the half cage will prevent the rood concertinaing. Apart from that the removable Heigo half cage is just plain sexy in a "hot rod serious street legal Porsche nut case kinda way"- you have to admit!
If you want to be truly safe you need a full cage with door protection. If you were on Targa Comp youd probably want a damn good window net too. Good seats, harness bar, 6 point harness and Hans device with full helmet.
Depends where you are taking this John. It was never going to be cheap, your were never going to retain your life insurance and you will always be at risk of injury despite how much proetction you have. Our cars are road cars, I dont even think he 964s have an airbag system unlike the 993, 996 and all GT3 variants.
My thought are that you update your helmet. If you are concerned about the fire level afforded by your suit buy a three layer like many of use of use a nomex undergarment and balaclava (I have one never worn you can use). Get the car set up stable and safe and get a nice bucket seat. If you move to a harness bar given what we have read then do it only with 5/6 point system and Hans or not at all.
I just read the full article on Sean Edwards death whist as an instructor passenger in Australia during a Porsche driving day in a 996 at the hands of a 20 year old assumed novice driver? and looks like he may survive!. What an absolute shame, this Brit had real talent and a really big future ahead of him. To be honest I wonder how guys like Ray do it sitting in the car with some of us. Dangerous occupation. I believe however that Seans instant death was very unlucky - probably angle and side of impact etc
10-27-2013, 11:24 PM
#5664
Three Wheelin'
Nearly targa time. Car about as ready as its going to be. Given all the discussion on brakes and cooling thought I would post this. My brakes are great in the hardest use but last year did get the shakes which I think was due to pad deposits left during light use when touring, on cold rotors.
new mod this year- a butterfly in the ducting to cut off cooling during touring which can be operated inside the car. rotor also posted pic of the rotor end of the ducting showing the airflow direct to the inside of the vanes where the hats bolt to rotor.
new mod this year- a butterfly in the ducting to cut off cooling during touring which can be operated inside the car. rotor also posted pic of the rotor end of the ducting showing the airflow direct to the inside of the vanes where the hats bolt to rotor.
10-28-2013, 01:39 AM
#5668
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Kapiti - New Zealand
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Interesting discussion around safety. I've always been told its like insurance and what level of risk you are prepared to accept also in relation to where and how you are driving.
There are always risks, even with all the gear and its our choice how much or little we do to mitigate that risk.
When I hear you guys talking weight reduction, larger brakes, gear sets, cages, door nets etc etc you begin to wonder why this doesn't make more sense http://www.porsche.org.nz/PorscheClu...2576E700115A2D (the one at the top) when you start trying to make a road car a race car.
There are always risks, even with all the gear and its our choice how much or little we do to mitigate that risk.
When I hear you guys talking weight reduction, larger brakes, gear sets, cages, door nets etc etc you begin to wonder why this doesn't make more sense http://www.porsche.org.nz/PorscheClu...2576E700115A2D (the one at the top) when you start trying to make a road car a race car.
10-28-2013, 01:58 AM
#5669
Rennlist Member
Jamie. Without doubt an ex Cup Car GT3 makes total sense if you are an accomplished track driver who wants to go racing or to the next level. They are very cheap to buy but they do have lifed engine, brake and drive train components which can make running them around 2-3x as expensive as an equivalent GT3 road car of the same era.
I think mainly they are not RSG cars because you cant drive them to the track (legally). So things like NITT & SITT are no good. Targa Tour is out as is Targa NZ main comp and Bambina etc. TAOCC and many classic races are out too. Lastly Prestigio insurance is out for PD and RSG.
Just a few thoughts...
I think mainly they are not RSG cars because you cant drive them to the track (legally). So things like NITT & SITT are no good. Targa Tour is out as is Targa NZ main comp and Bambina etc. TAOCC and many classic races are out too. Lastly Prestigio insurance is out for PD and RSG.
Just a few thoughts...
10-28-2013, 02:05 AM
#5670
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Kapiti - New Zealand
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Jamie. Without doubt an ex Cup Car GT3 makes total sense if you are an accomplished track driver who wants to go racing or to the next level. They are very cheap to buy but they do have lifed engine, brake and drive train components which can make running them around 2-3x as expensive as an equivalent GT3 road car of the same era.
I think mainly they are not RSG cars because you cant drive them to the track (legally). So things like NITT & SITT are no good. Targa Tour is out as is Targa NZ main comp and Bambina etc. TAOCC and many classic races are out too. Lastly Prestigio insurance is out for PD and RSG.
Just a few thoughts...
I think mainly they are not RSG cars because you cant drive them to the track (legally). So things like NITT & SITT are no good. Targa Tour is out as is Targa NZ main comp and Bambina etc. TAOCC and many classic races are out too. Lastly Prestigio insurance is out for PD and RSG.
Just a few thoughts...
I guess if you have deep pockets then you just keep spending
