Macca

Agreed Buba. Thats 6.2 GT3 money. The irony!

996tnz

Still keen on Meremere for some proper quarter mile times, and cost is fine once split, but it's only long enough to do the quarter, plus probably the half-kilometre. Meremere is the full drag racing experience though (insane times aside) so well worth it.

But one of these days I also still want to do a timed standing km (needs about 1300m with reaction and braking) and a top speed run (needs about 4 to 5 kms ideally, so closed roads are about it).

kiwi 911

Ture - as an investment it looks like I backed the wrong horse :-(

Runtothehills

nice way to archive your collection...

Macca

So this is the way I see it....

Launched today GT4 Race car (clubsport). LHD (only) non registerable for street. Landed cost NZ $220,000 NZD including GST.

1300kg including cage with PDK-S and everything you need to go racing. The car qualifies for at least 3 Euro and 2 US competitions and could be run as a PCNZ racer in GT3+. Front and rear suspension from Cup car and brakes too.

Id imagine in the supplied 18" slicks would be good for sun 1.10 at HD.

Now step forward 12 months. Imagine an HD membership (10K sign up 5k pa plus 4K pa garage). This in your garage. 20 track days a year and the option to put it in the PCNZ series and possibly other series later on. Run for fun on R comp tyres (not slicks) it would be a low cost bullet proof track package. Drive up in your road car, get changed, go out and hit some 10s on R comps go home and back in the office next day.

If HD becomes quantifiable more expensive after November next year (extension opened) for the likes of Playdays and others and you have the initial 220K + 10K to put into this car and membership I cant see a better all round solution. Only regret is it cant be road registered for targa (although someone could find a way to do this maybe at an expense).

If I lived in NZ and RSG/Playdays became extinct due to pricing Id consider selling the GT3 to fun into this car and membership. Would provid a (realistic) 15 days a year at HD at low cost doing some great track times in a dedicated machine thats built to take the abuse and (relatively) low cost to run under those circumstances. I see the GT4 Clubsport may depreciate a little quicker than a road GT3/RS. Thats about the only negative I can see.

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/6...Clubsport.html

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...sport-revealed

pcarplayer

^^^ lordy. car **** at its best

Pel

Problem is PDK, personally I'd rather go back in time, keep the gears and have fun. Long term, develop what I have, or find a 996 cup, which will
become scarce, thought about buying one and putting away till I'm ready.

The GT4 is a marvelous looking racecar though.

Macca

That last shot is my favourite!

You cant deny the value here. A 991 GT3 Cup car will set you back 450K++ NZD new. This is half the price!

I know its not everyones budget, but think forward a year and for the rpice of a used 991/997.2 GT3 you could have GT4 Clubsport, 4 sets of tyres, a spare set of wheels, one off membership to Hamptons and garage and two years of 20 day a year membership paid up!

Its a compelling equation for those with the $$$ in the future if track access becomes difficult and the thought of series competition in the future is on the cards..

Anyone interested in the difference on the track between the cars from an good amateur track drivers point of view will find the below a good read. Its not very scientific and plenty flawed but interesting none the less...

Macca

....

Macca

IMO MT is more fun on the road but you cant beat PDK/Automated for speed on the track.

I have a foot in each camp so can speak from relative experience. At pace on the track the PDK-S is simply awesome, an all the involvement you need if you switch to paddles (which Im only just starting to build the confidence up to do now). If you ask anyone who has taken a ride in my car (Jamie was the last passenger on here that did) Im sure they will tell you that even in "sport auto" mode (which is how Ive been mostly driving it with occasional paddle overides) there is plenty enough going on to keep the driver busy. For non pros it frees up mental bandwidth for safer driving at speed allowing you to use your cells to process turning and braking points.

Not to mention the elimination of a "money shift" or damage to the synchos and gears through poor heel & toe matches.

All factory marque race teams have gone this way in the last 10 years for a reason. Its faster/safer.

I could pretty much guarantee if you jumped into that GT4 Clubsport and pulled off 10 laps in the 1.08-1.10 range you would not exit the car saying you wish it had a manual! You would be fizzing on adrenaline and wondering how the heck you pulled it all off :-)

Seriously though. I think there is a big delta here between those that want to circulate and those that want to "go fast". Once you want to go fast you have no issue with taking on a sequential paddle box or a PDK-S unit. Cayman racers been using them a few years now at BGB Motorsports and winning podiums. No complaints Im hearing.

Id probably add that just about everyone on the GT3 forum who was dissing the GT3/RS for having PDK-S and who have bought the car (most come form 7.2 GT3RS & 4.0RS) have retraced their prior statements after a few track laps.

All the 997 up Cup cars are sequential (later ones with paddles) now. PAG have made it clear their GT3RS road car as their halo track car will be PDK only from 991.1 gen on (although GT3 will be offered MT option for 991.2 gen I believe). Im talking guys in Europe & the states doing 30-50 track days a year and who are accomplished drivers (Manifold, OrthoJoe, Trakcar, Alaint101 etc.

I know its the "party line" to diss PDK in the latest GT products as "not purest" or involving enough. I have my own views for fast road work (and prefer a MT although paddle shifting the GT3 can get close in some examples for the involvement but never quiet as good IMO). But on the track, if you want to go fast (with the added benefit of mechanical sympathy) , there is no argument that PDK-S does the job in my mind.

I think in a few years time when these cars are used, cheaper and more people have driven them on the track they will be able to understand that.

The GT4 Clubsport isn't built for anything other than going as fast as is possible. There is a thrill in this. Its like turbo cars. I dislike the lack of response and aural delights but I cannot deny that the speed/torque is addictive and its the same with going fast on the track (assumes type A personality naturally!).

Some people will always prefer a MT. But there are no competitive options left on the table today in Porsche motorsport for those people if they want to make podium internationally recognised series.

Macca

Also good news for GT3/RS owners. Michelin have released a new compound (N1) Pilot Sport Cup 2 tyre. These are not yet available readily in NZ and are only just starting to filter through in bigger markets. They claim to improve wet and try times on the track. The very few who have used them say they give Tropheo R levels of grip but with much more latitude for use (wet, dry, temps etc). Unfortunately they appear to be more expensive again than the older N0 tyre we are currently using, although there are some obvious benefits...

The good news is this improved compound should start to filter down to 18 & 19 inch fitments by the end of 2016 and as Jake is about to find out will offer some reasonably priced alternatives (in those fitments) to full on R comps (Z221/TropheoR/Dunlop etc) in the future with the benefit of being quiet on the road and handling ok in the wet...

Pel

Agree, for most, driving on track is punching in the fastest time, in the fastest gear they have the means to get their hands on. For this PDK is undeniable, im sure if I owned one I would be the same.

I'm bad enough/have so much going on in the SC, so appreciate how fast it must happen at 230kph+ PDK can de clutter and allow focus on better braking and lines, this is even the case with an auto box in the 996tt.

Not bagging Porsches choice's, they either implement the fastest tech or get left behind.

At the risk of sounding like my pops, im not sure if all this tech actually makes better drivers?

Or maybe it does, driving stick is becoming obsolete, getting everything else right isn't.

996tnz

I think that 'getting everything else right' is also fast going by the wayside:

Torque vectoring to assist turn in, with or without trail braking.

Stability control to rescue an average or inattentive driver from themselves, and 'PSM Off' buttons that partially leave PSM on.

Stupid on-off switched handbrake, so someone doesn't use a proper one the wrong way at the wrong time.

Little lights in the mirror to save you looking over your shoulder before changing lanes on road (yes - you should still look, but I suspect many wouldn't).

Brake Assist, so the car can do what it thinks you want, rather than what you are telling it to do.

Variable steering ratio and/or assist - again the car trying to help you with something it needn't, at the expense of linear responsiveness.

Electric steering (filters inputs and outputs)

Active steering (BMWs have 'corrective steering' as part of their stability control, and it's spreading)

Accelerator disablement under braking - again, taking away control and adjustability. Really hate this one!

Autoblipping (especially with manuals)

Autoparking

Cruise control and advanced adaptive cruise control

Launch control

Autonomous emergency braking (may stop you hitting the back of the van in front, but could also leave you stopping in the path of an oncoming train while it does so).

Obsessive fuel economy - eg accelerator delays from certain speeds to meet test requirements.

Adaptive mode engines and transmissions without proper manual overides.

Assisted drift mode/side slip control (looking at you, Ferrari, but it's hitting P cars now too).

And that's just on the controls and dynamics fronts. Add in ECU logging, GPS, automated comms channels back to home base etc and it gets worse.

Basically, I hate all the crap being added to cars that gets in the way of the car just doing what it is told, and just telling me whats happening as a result.

But that's about all I can't stand. Provided their responses are predictable or transparent, I actually like systems that make sense (like auto-levelling headlights, head up displays etc) or help the car respond truer and faster, like PDKs, adaptive engine mounts paddle shifts, active suspension, adaptive brake biasing, active aero and probably even 4 wheel steering and electric hybridisation. Actually, I'm potentially OK with torque vectoring too, provided it is linearly implemented - and doesn't pump too much heat into the brakes, as most do seem to do.

Of course, some would say the writing was on the wall ages ago with the demise of manual timing advance, and then the loss of the manual choke etc etc so it's all a matter of perspective. Sorry - bit passionate about this stuff when it comes to proper cars.

Like most, I do look forward to just sending the automated car out to pick up the kids/bring us back from the pub etc but we tend to forget that those same automated cars will also be networked traffic monitoring platforms, essentially making almost every car a traffic enforcement car.

Macca

Its an interesting debate. There are drivers now coming through the carting ranks who will be future world champions who have likely never used a stick. Playstation generation.

I have been an old skool MT Porsche fan through and through. I've never owned an "automatic" (excluding our trucks here on The Rock) until the GT3 (and only I might add because iIwas not given an option).

Interestingly it did not put me off the car, rather it excited me as it ensured the GT3 was even further removed from my old tech 993 (and I couldn't see the point in owning a second car that offered a similar feel and experience). Now I own two 911s that are very different in thrills and driver experience.

I definitely agree that being handy with a MT is a skill worth having. Does it make you a better/safer/faster driver on the track or in the real world? Perhaps not.

I still love driving the 993 on the track. Its doing 4 races (well regularity trials) at the Festival in Jan and Im looking forward to it as the car hasn't seen the track in 18 months. That said Im looking forward to getting the GT3 out on the track on 11 Jan RSG just as much. I could lap either all day with pleasure. Getting a good lap in the 993 feel better but will be even more fun when there is someone to play with (its in that middle bracket currently where there isnt much company). Like most RSGers (regardless what they say) Im fairly competitive and like to mix it up with others with equally fast machinery. The 993 was great when I had Paul to play with and Steve to chase in his 997S (road car not his "new" stripped out 997). With the GT3 there is plenty to play with and much to learn. Im still getting quicker and its not boring yet. Maybe a 993 re-power after the GT3 would be a good idea:-)

Back to the GT3/RS/GT4 Clubsport thing, these cars are made in my mind for only one reason. T drive to the track and put in fast lap times. The GT4CS moreso as effectively is a non road legal Cup car. GT3/RS are not the best suited for fast NZ B roads in any case even though the new gen are better than previously for this purpose. I think thats why so many 996/997 GT3 had so many owners early in their life because people bought them as weekend toys before realising they were a bit uncompomised for the road. The thing is how many NZers actually buy a new GT3/RS and take it regularly to the track. I know of maybe 6 and four of those are new to GT3 (buying mostly because the car is more capable on the road and more useable across a variety of scenarios - Richard S, Ron S and Jon all fall into this camp IMO).

As much as I would have liked the GT4CS to be a manual the reality is its built to be the quickest it can, as you say the competition is fierce and progress is relentless. Ive learnt to accept this (it isnt changing), keep my old girl and find out what this new gear is about. As much as I or teh other hardcore enthusiasts would have s******ed at this in the past i have found there is alot of excitement with the new product. As much as with the old stuff but just different.

It has spoilt me however. Now I want my 993 to have a GT3 engine and power/speed (it can be done but the sum total of achieving this will be far higher than buying a new GT product and will not be worth nearly as much!).

993 Targa

Interesting article there Macca about the full 911 range, do you have the bit about the GTS too?

Your point about the GT4CS seems like a dream scenario, would it be quicker than a 997 Cup car though which would be much cheaper?

On the topic of cup cars out of interest are their running costs crazy or not that bad? I had read 996s were more reasonable?