Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
05-15-2013, 03:34 AM
#2761
Rennlist Member
Lovely example. NZ new too. Has the optional turbo seats with the larger side bolsters.
I just cant believe how many 964's there seem to be in NZ. Appears there are shed loads. And they seem such ridiculously good value which I guess makes them even more popular.
The 993 by comparison is twice the price which makes it quite a poor value proposition especially as a track car. I wonder how many 964s are in NZ. They sold 125 993 of all variants New in NZ between 1994 and 1998 and I believe around another 60 were imported from offshore. Thing is I believe they sold far less than 125 NZ new 964s (I heard around 100) from 1989-1993 so there must have been a shed load of 964 imports....
I just cant believe how many 964's there seem to be in NZ. Appears there are shed loads. And they seem such ridiculously good value which I guess makes them even more popular.
The 993 by comparison is twice the price which makes it quite a poor value proposition especially as a track car. I wonder how many 964s are in NZ. They sold 125 993 of all variants New in NZ between 1994 and 1998 and I believe around another 60 were imported from offshore. Thing is I believe they sold far less than 125 NZ new 964s (I heard around 100) from 1989-1993 so there must have been a shed load of 964 imports....
05-15-2013, 04:28 AM
#2762
Instructor
Jon Warring now lives in rural Hamilton, very close to me. Still very involved in Porsche racing and rebuiding their lives after unhappy times due to the Christchurch earthquake, a real gentleman.
05-15-2013, 05:30 AM
#2763
Rennlist Member
Its good to see some quality community members move to Hamilton. A 993 owner and 944 owner and now a Porsche engine builder. Hurray!
05-15-2013, 05:43 AM
#2764
Drifting
I can see his point. Peter doesn't have the space or directive to remove the shocks. Hes working out of a Mitsubishi dealership and I think they barely tolerate noisy 911s rolling up for Geos whilst they are busy fitting tyres to mummy's wagon. Its the hoist time hes concerned about. I guess if you were there you could have them pulled out in a few hours and whip them over to Penrose to be set up on their testing rig and return them later that day. Its one of the hassles of being offshore I must admit....
On another note, up here in Shanghai an associate has a 997, boxster and a 993C4S (in Singapore). Showed him my 964 and he is getting excited about 964 turbos
05-15-2013, 06:18 AM
#2765
Pro
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Paul. Great car. That's actually good value given the engine alone would probably cost 50k aud to build ground up. Id question its ability to make 400bhp on a 3.8 config but maybe they had a happy dyno. Love the colour and refreshing to see a IROC replica as something a bit different especially down under. Will be a good car for someone. If it were 135k nzd and in NZ Sean would have likely bought it by now!
05-15-2013, 07:02 AM
#2766
Rennlist Member
Simms in Newmarket. Just sold the wife's Alfa on the back of the worst dealer experience ever from there. Sadly I don't feel I could go there again for a geo with Peter, would have to suck it in before I walked into the service area. Bugger.
On another note, up here in Shanghai an associate has a 997, boxster and a 993C4S (in Singapore). Showed him my 964 and he is getting excited about 964 turbos
On another note, up here in Shanghai an associate has a 997, boxster and a 993C4S (in Singapore). Showed him my 964 and he is getting excited about 964 turbos
Your china associate sounds interesting indeed. Ask him if his 993C4S is one of the arena red anniversary cars. they shipped with RUF EKS from the Porsche factory though many have been converted to manual now. Good chance it will be one of those...
05-15-2013, 07:56 AM
#2767
Rennlist Member
A quick question for you Macca.
How did you find your GT3 compared to the air-cooled cars?
As the most raw & involving of the watercoolers in terms of feedback/interactivity was it comparable to a 964/993 with suspension work?
You've obviously returned to the air-cooled era albeit with a highly developed hard-core car, but did you find the GT3 just a bit "too perfect" to be as involving as you'd like? Had the wilder 911 characteristics been engineered out too much for your liking?
Tim
How did you find your GT3 compared to the air-cooled cars?
As the most raw & involving of the watercoolers in terms of feedback/interactivity was it comparable to a 964/993 with suspension work?
You've obviously returned to the air-cooled era albeit with a highly developed hard-core car, but did you find the GT3 just a bit "too perfect" to be as involving as you'd like? Had the wilder 911 characteristics been engineered out too much for your liking?
Tim
05-15-2013, 08:44 AM
#2768
Rennlist Member
Great question Tim. Back in 2005 when I had the 996.1 GT3 I felt a bit different about it than I do today. Time moves on and so do our expectations and views on things. At the time (and I still had a 993 in the garage as a comparison albeit not in the configuration it is in today) I felt the GT3 was too clinical and far more accomplished than I was as a driver. My reference point for that car was the 993RS I had previously owned. I also found the styling bland and that it lacked the character of the 993 (and older 911s). The interior smell, the sound, the quaintness of the interior with upright windscreen, the tightness of the packaging (size) and of course the build quality (still today the sound of my 993 door closing, the thud and solidity of it still amazes me - its like a bank vault door closing!). The GT3 also seemed to be quite firmly sprung on the road (skipped around a bit on bad surfaces etc).
The stand out point was that engine. It revved so freely and although In my mind although it doesn't have the same voice of the air cooled engines it still had a spine tingling top end and such a extended rev range it really was a thing of joy. At the time I recall thinking if that engine could be transplanted into the 993 that would be the perfect car. Must be added I wasnt doing any track work or Targa etc at the time, just road miles and back road drives....
Essentially it was the age old thing about the newer car being more clinical with less character than the old one. The debate continues today with the new 991 GT3. The thing is as time has moved on the 996.1 GT3 is more like the 993RS was compared to later 3.8GT3 and now new 991 GT3 (I suspect). Moreover Ive now done Targa and some track in the 993 and I realize even more today that the GT3 is a better car for this type of work than the 993 although it may not return the same feelings when static in the garage or idling after a fast run.
I think now the years have passed by the 996.1 GT3 represents a fantastic balance of reliability, performance and value - especially if One wants to use it in anger. As a point of interest my reference for the 993 is the 6GT3. Eventually when i finish the car (hopefully with a 9M engine upgrade) it will finally be comparable to the GT3 dynamically whilst still retaining its air cooled and 993 traits.
You summed it up well. At the time I felt the GT3 was "too perfect" and that some of the most iconic traits of the 911 had been lost. In hindsight and will maturity and experience as the game has moved on and all the models become more refined and meet modern expectations I feel the 996 GT3 delivers most for someone keen to participate on track or tarmac rally on a realistic budget. As a road car I would prefer an older 911 or if funds were not part of the equation then the 3.8GT3.
If I were coming fresh to Porsche now with a 30-40 GBP budget and given the fact I now spend my time enjoying the car more at its limit (and hope to indulge in regular track) I would without doubt buy a good 996.1/2 GT3. The 993/964 are very hard to find in very good condition, cost more to maintain and quite frankly are very expensive to bring up to a performance standard you would be happy with on track after a dozen track days. That said I wont sell my 993 even though I see a much more modern performance Porsche in my not too distant future. As I say, you get older time takes a cigarette....and your tastes change a little and your expectations alter...
The stand out point was that engine. It revved so freely and although In my mind although it doesn't have the same voice of the air cooled engines it still had a spine tingling top end and such a extended rev range it really was a thing of joy. At the time I recall thinking if that engine could be transplanted into the 993 that would be the perfect car. Must be added I wasnt doing any track work or Targa etc at the time, just road miles and back road drives....
Essentially it was the age old thing about the newer car being more clinical with less character than the old one. The debate continues today with the new 991 GT3. The thing is as time has moved on the 996.1 GT3 is more like the 993RS was compared to later 3.8GT3 and now new 991 GT3 (I suspect). Moreover Ive now done Targa and some track in the 993 and I realize even more today that the GT3 is a better car for this type of work than the 993 although it may not return the same feelings when static in the garage or idling after a fast run.
I think now the years have passed by the 996.1 GT3 represents a fantastic balance of reliability, performance and value - especially if One wants to use it in anger. As a point of interest my reference for the 993 is the 6GT3. Eventually when i finish the car (hopefully with a 9M engine upgrade) it will finally be comparable to the GT3 dynamically whilst still retaining its air cooled and 993 traits.
You summed it up well. At the time I felt the GT3 was "too perfect" and that some of the most iconic traits of the 911 had been lost. In hindsight and will maturity and experience as the game has moved on and all the models become more refined and meet modern expectations I feel the 996 GT3 delivers most for someone keen to participate on track or tarmac rally on a realistic budget. As a road car I would prefer an older 911 or if funds were not part of the equation then the 3.8GT3.
If I were coming fresh to Porsche now with a 30-40 GBP budget and given the fact I now spend my time enjoying the car more at its limit (and hope to indulge in regular track) I would without doubt buy a good 996.1/2 GT3. The 993/964 are very hard to find in very good condition, cost more to maintain and quite frankly are very expensive to bring up to a performance standard you would be happy with on track after a dozen track days. That said I wont sell my 993 even though I see a much more modern performance Porsche in my not too distant future. As I say, you get older time takes a cigarette....and your tastes change a little and your expectations alter...
05-15-2013, 08:46 AM
#2769
Rennlist Member
Great question Tim. Back in 2005 when I had the 996.1 GT3 I felt a bit different about it than I do today. Time moves on and so do our expectations and views on things. At the time (and I still had a 993 in the garage as a comparison albeit not in the configuration it is in today) I felt the GT3 was too clinical and far more accomplished than I was as a driver. My reference point for that car was the 993RS I had previously owned. I also found the styling bland and that it lacked the character of the 993 (and older 911s). The interior smell, the sound, the quaintness of the interior with upright windscreen, the tightness of the packaging (size) and of course the build quality (still today the sound of my 993 door closing, the thud and solidity of it still amazes me - its like a bank vault door closing!). The GT3 also seemed to be quite firmly sprung on the road (skipped around a bit on bad surfaces etc).
The stand out point was that engine. It revved so freely and although In my mind although it doesn't have the same voice of the air cooled engines it still had a spine tingling top end and such a extended rev range it really was a thing of joy. At the time I recall thinking if that engine could be transplanted into the 993 that would be the perfect car. Must be added I wasnt doing any track work or Targa etc at the time, just road miles and back road drives....
Essentially it was the age old thing about the newer car being more clinical with less character than the old one. The debate continues today with the new 991 GT3. The thing is as time has moved on the 996.1 GT3 is more like the 993RS was compared to later 3.8GT3 and now new 991 GT3 (I suspect). Moreover Ive now done Targa and some track in the 993 and I realize even more today that the GT3 is a better car for this type of work than the 993 although it may not return the same feelings when static in the garage or idling after a fast run.
I think now the years have passed by the 996.1 GT3 represents a fantastic balance of reliability, performance and value - especially if One wants to use it in anger. As a point of interest my reference for the 993 is the 6GT3. Eventually when i finish the car (hopefully with a 9M engine upgrade) it will finally be comparable to the GT3 dynamically whilst still retaining its air cooled and 993 traits.
You summed it up well. At the time I felt the GT3 was "too perfect" and that some of the most iconic traits of the 911 had been lost. In hindsight and will maturity and experience as the game has moved on and all the models become more refined and meet modern expectations I feel the 996 GT3 delivers most for someone keen to participate on track or tarmac rally on a realistic budget. As a road car I would prefer an older 911 or if funds were not part of the equation then the 3.8GT3.
If I were coming fresh to Porsche now with a 30-40 GBP budget and given the fact I now spend my time enjoying the car more at its limit (and hope to indulge in regular track) I would without doubt buy a good 996.1/2 GT3. The 993/964 are very hard to find in very good condition, cost more to maintain and quite frankly are very expensive to bring up to a performance standard you would be happy with on track after a dozen track days. That said I wont sell my 993 even though I see a much more modern performance Porsche in my not too distant future. As I say, you get older time takes a cigarette....and your tastes change a little and your expectations alter...
The stand out point was that engine. It revved so freely and although In my mind although it doesn't have the same voice of the air cooled engines it still had a spine tingling top end and such a extended rev range it really was a thing of joy. At the time I recall thinking if that engine could be transplanted into the 993 that would be the perfect car. Must be added I wasnt doing any track work or Targa etc at the time, just road miles and back road drives....
Essentially it was the age old thing about the newer car being more clinical with less character than the old one. The debate continues today with the new 991 GT3. The thing is as time has moved on the 996.1 GT3 is more like the 993RS was compared to later 3.8GT3 and now new 991 GT3 (I suspect). Moreover Ive now done Targa and some track in the 993 and I realize even more today that the GT3 is a better car for this type of work than the 993 although it may not return the same feelings when static in the garage or idling after a fast run.
I think now the years have passed by the 996.1 GT3 represents a fantastic balance of reliability, performance and value - especially if One wants to use it in anger. As a point of interest my reference for the 993 is the 6GT3. Eventually when i finish the car (hopefully with a 9M engine upgrade) it will finally be comparable to the GT3 dynamically whilst still retaining its air cooled and 993 traits.
You summed it up well. At the time I felt the GT3 was "too perfect" and that some of the most iconic traits of the 911 had been lost. In hindsight and will maturity and experience as the game has moved on and all the models become more refined and meet modern expectations I feel the 996 GT3 delivers most for someone keen to participate on track or tarmac rally on a realistic budget. As a road car I would prefer an older 911 or if funds were not part of the equation then the 3.8GT3.
If I were coming fresh to Porsche now with a 30-40 GBP budget and given the fact I now spend my time enjoying the car more at its limit (and hope to indulge in regular track) I would without doubt buy a good 996.1/2 GT3. The 993/964 are very hard to find in very good condition, cost more to maintain and quite frankly are very expensive to bring up to a performance standard you would be happy with on track after a dozen track days. That said I wont sell my 993 even though I see a much more modern performance Porsche in my not too distant future. As I say, you get older time takes a cigarette....and your tastes change a little and your expectations alter...
05-15-2013, 11:24 AM
#2770
Rennlist Member
Thanks Macca, that's really interesting. If I could build my perfect 911 I think it wouldn't be a million miles away from the Yellowbird, but without the turbo. A 964 C2, retaining the narrow body but with a big hp N/A motor, stock C2 retractable wing etc - but as discussed that would be big money.
My concern with the GT3 is that it still has a certain amount of built-in obsolescence. There's always a better train-set around the corner '96Mk1/Mk2/RS, 97 GT3/3.8/RS/4.0 RS, then 991 GT3/RS etc.
With a 993 you're in the last of the air-cooled & with a 964 you're in the last air-cooled with the original silouette. They're like WW2 fighters - the peak of that particular technology & in that respect timeless. As opposed to the first generation of jet fighters which were at the most primitive end of a newer technology & destined to be quickly outdated by superior offerings.
...come to think of it...may be a Yellowbird...well I can dream can't I?
My concern with the GT3 is that it still has a certain amount of built-in obsolescence. There's always a better train-set around the corner '96Mk1/Mk2/RS, 97 GT3/3.8/RS/4.0 RS, then 991 GT3/RS etc.
With a 993 you're in the last of the air-cooled & with a 964 you're in the last air-cooled with the original silouette. They're like WW2 fighters - the peak of that particular technology & in that respect timeless. As opposed to the first generation of jet fighters which were at the most primitive end of a newer technology & destined to be quickly outdated by superior offerings.
...come to think of it...may be a Yellowbird...well I can dream can't I?
05-15-2013, 06:13 PM
#2771
Rennlist Member
Tim. Again well said and a great analogy!
The Yellowbird is one of my all time favourite 911s and I have a file full or pictures of this car. If I were doing a 964 "backdate" I would seriously look at this for inspiration. Id flare the rear and add the NACAR ducts and it would have to be speed yellow too. I was tracking an original set of 17" RUF yellowbird wheels on ebay.co.uk last week (they were asking 2000 GBP and they were in great condition) but the listing was pulled unfortunately. Getting the front and rear bumpers is still possible too. I agree a M/A monster engine from someone like 9M would be a great compromise here if $$$ are no limit. The Yellowbrid is iconic and a landmark and under rated a bit on the market IMHO. Id take one anyday over a 964RS.
You are right the 993/964 are like an old WWII fighter, but like any aging mechanical platform they require real dollars to get the best out of and keep running in peak condition. The market is starting to appreciate this with UK prices for highly/tastefully upgraded 964s and 993s well above the "rats and mice". The same should be the situation in NZ where we have some of the cheapest stock 964s in the world but unfortunately many here are used and neglected. Very few Kiwis will dig deep to look after these cars and ehnace them correctly. This board has a growing number of folks willing to do that but its still a very rare thing...
The Yellowbird is one of my all time favourite 911s and I have a file full or pictures of this car. If I were doing a 964 "backdate" I would seriously look at this for inspiration. Id flare the rear and add the NACAR ducts and it would have to be speed yellow too. I was tracking an original set of 17" RUF yellowbird wheels on ebay.co.uk last week (they were asking 2000 GBP and they were in great condition) but the listing was pulled unfortunately. Getting the front and rear bumpers is still possible too. I agree a M/A monster engine from someone like 9M would be a great compromise here if $$$ are no limit. The Yellowbrid is iconic and a landmark and under rated a bit on the market IMHO. Id take one anyday over a 964RS.
You are right the 993/964 are like an old WWII fighter, but like any aging mechanical platform they require real dollars to get the best out of and keep running in peak condition. The market is starting to appreciate this with UK prices for highly/tastefully upgraded 964s and 993s well above the "rats and mice". The same should be the situation in NZ where we have some of the cheapest stock 964s in the world but unfortunately many here are used and neglected. Very few Kiwis will dig deep to look after these cars and ehnace them correctly. This board has a growing number of folks willing to do that but its still a very rare thing...
05-15-2013, 07:29 PM
#2772
Rennlist Member
The 993/964 are like an old WWII fighter, but like any aging mechanical platform they require real dollars to get the best out of and keep running in peak condition. The market is starting to appreciate this with UK prices for highly/tastefully upgraded 964s and 993s well above the "rats and mice". The same should be the situation in NZ where we have some of the cheapest stock 964s in the world but unfortunately many here are used and neglected. Very few Kiwis will dig deep to look after these cars and ehnace them correctly. This board has a growing number of folks willing to do that but its still a very rare thing...
05-15-2013, 07:38 PM
#2773
Drifting
I am certainly happy with the car with the spec it came in, C2 with a well sorted platform. I have baskets full of parts on plenty of websites but took some of Macca's previous advice to plan well first to avoid doing it twice. My vision for the car is solidifying
