Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
04-06-2013, 10:19 PM
#2012
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On a related but separate matter, talking to a few people at the swap meet yesterday, I understand the PClub are looking to seriously increase the number of track orientated events this year and create a road car orientated event series. Should be interesting...............
I'm sure it's in no small part this group of guys here that's starting to get the wheels moving on these sorts of things and I'm happy to support the club beef up their calendar in any way possible remotely.
04-06-2013, 10:21 PM
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Here's some other wheel options from Gert in Belgium. Good value too. I have some freight inbound from him later this month if someone wants to share freight costs.
These ones have the Porsche script on them which I think is more desirable for little extra cost.
Also don't forget Rennline have just released this lovely quick release kit. They do lovely stuff and a mate in the UK has just ordered this and reckons it the dogs bollocks. If you email Rennline mention me to Tom the owner and he may fox you up with a discount code. Its very resonably priced race gear for the 911...
These ones have the Porsche script on them which I think is more desirable for little extra cost.
Also don't forget Rennline have just released this lovely quick release kit. They do lovely stuff and a mate in the UK has just ordered this and reckons it the dogs bollocks. If you email Rennline mention me to Tom the owner and he may fox you up with a discount code. Its very resonably priced race gear for the 911...
04-06-2013, 10:40 PM
#2014
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Sean and I have spent many emails over many months debating various 964 build sagas offline.
I'm still 100% adamant the only sane reason for building a "uber track meister" from a stock 964/993 road car is because you want a meaty project to spend your time on. You will spend 100s of ours on the internet, 10s of hours on offshore phone calls and many hours talking with local specialists to get the final product. Even then it will take quite some time and often a number of component changes to get the car set up and performing just as you had envisaged. Then youll likely spend some more money on things you hadn't thought of and of course the whole process stress tests durability. Once you have ot set up just right and you are maximising your lap times from it you will want more power. As I say you have to be one who can enjoy the journey and be prepared for the expense because at times it becomes very frustrating and it never makes any fiscal sense at the end of the day...
I honestly cant see how you can take a 20 year old standard road 964/993 with questionable maintenance history and turn it into a competitive and reliable track car for under 140k nzd including donor vehicle and assuming a bottom and top end rebuilt with Corrillos ARP rods etc to give a strong 3.6/3.8 unit that loves to rev reliably.
If you dont have the time, patience, funds etc for this then buy someone elses recently finished high quality project for a fraction of what they have spent.
Articles out of the UK and evidence via Pistonheads Classifieds demonstrates that a well modified 964 or 993 is able to fetch 20k GBP more than a factory standard car so similar condition and miles in todays market. Although thats probably only 50% of the value of the upgrades its still impressive as in other models this % difference between modded and stock vehicle has not been the case and from what I have recently read in UK Porsche magazines it seems buyers are becoming educated to just how much it now costs to modify successfully a 964 or 993.
I guess as we all know what Im saying here is there are no free lunches. The 28k C4 on TM is a great buy as a donor for a project, but as a reliable trouble free daily driver it could turn into a barrel of monkeys. Same goes for a 35k one depending on history etc.
If you are building like Sean did you ultimate track miester then it really doesnt matter so much what you start with given you'll likely tear down the engine, have the gearbox looked at and rebuild the suspension, replace brakes etc. Sean chose an ex Bridgestone car as it already had many off the improvements he needed (2WD chassis, cage, suspension and brakes) and started from there.
I have made the mistake with my 993 of
a). not having accurately determined at the beginning what I wanted the final outcome to be (I kept evolving it as I learnt more instead of doing all my work up front). This has meant time and money (10-20k?) on things that either did not perform as they were intended and were replaced, modified or pulled out and lost time and labour $$$ experimenting and trying to make things work that perhaps were not worth persuing. Also under this category falls doig things twice because you didnt go the full hog the first time...
and b). Not bringing the project together in a tighter time frame. This can be due to funds or time. In my case the latter as I was not in NZ much. The thing is I see lots of guys hold back on budget and the problem here is they eventually do press the button but find other components are now life's and require attention and it becomes catch up again. Its like a house. You buy it and you say youll fix things up. You never do until just before you sell it. A few weeks before you sell it you sit back and say how lovely it is now the rennovations are done. The thing is if you had have taken the hit to do the rennovations 5 years before when you bought the house you would have had the benefit of them for that time, improved lifestyle and received no less on sale day! The moral of the story here is beg, borrow, steal the money to make the project happen then get on and enjoy driving it instead of dragging it out 5 years and then never having the budget to complete because you are busy replacing wear items a second time around...
These are just IMHO of course but Im not to proud to stand up and tell others where I made mistakes and hopefully it can help others like John on this board make the right choices when they come to do similar.
Last bit of advice. If you really want to create something that works very well and cohesively you need as much information as you can get to make informed decisions. Research is excellent but dont be shy to pick up the phone and call Colin Belton in the UK or Steve Weiner in the US and pick their brains. Ive done that and much much more to learn what is possible and these guys love to share their knowledge. If you dont know whats out there then when you spend your money you dont always know you have the best you can afford, or the item that best does what you want it to do...
I'm still 100% adamant the only sane reason for building a "uber track meister" from a stock 964/993 road car is because you want a meaty project to spend your time on. You will spend 100s of ours on the internet, 10s of hours on offshore phone calls and many hours talking with local specialists to get the final product. Even then it will take quite some time and often a number of component changes to get the car set up and performing just as you had envisaged. Then youll likely spend some more money on things you hadn't thought of and of course the whole process stress tests durability. Once you have ot set up just right and you are maximising your lap times from it you will want more power. As I say you have to be one who can enjoy the journey and be prepared for the expense because at times it becomes very frustrating and it never makes any fiscal sense at the end of the day...
I honestly cant see how you can take a 20 year old standard road 964/993 with questionable maintenance history and turn it into a competitive and reliable track car for under 140k nzd including donor vehicle and assuming a bottom and top end rebuilt with Corrillos ARP rods etc to give a strong 3.6/3.8 unit that loves to rev reliably.
If you dont have the time, patience, funds etc for this then buy someone elses recently finished high quality project for a fraction of what they have spent.
Articles out of the UK and evidence via Pistonheads Classifieds demonstrates that a well modified 964 or 993 is able to fetch 20k GBP more than a factory standard car so similar condition and miles in todays market. Although thats probably only 50% of the value of the upgrades its still impressive as in other models this % difference between modded and stock vehicle has not been the case and from what I have recently read in UK Porsche magazines it seems buyers are becoming educated to just how much it now costs to modify successfully a 964 or 993.
I guess as we all know what Im saying here is there are no free lunches. The 28k C4 on TM is a great buy as a donor for a project, but as a reliable trouble free daily driver it could turn into a barrel of monkeys. Same goes for a 35k one depending on history etc.
If you are building like Sean did you ultimate track miester then it really doesnt matter so much what you start with given you'll likely tear down the engine, have the gearbox looked at and rebuild the suspension, replace brakes etc. Sean chose an ex Bridgestone car as it already had many off the improvements he needed (2WD chassis, cage, suspension and brakes) and started from there.
I have made the mistake with my 993 of
a). not having accurately determined at the beginning what I wanted the final outcome to be (I kept evolving it as I learnt more instead of doing all my work up front). This has meant time and money (10-20k?) on things that either did not perform as they were intended and were replaced, modified or pulled out and lost time and labour $$$ experimenting and trying to make things work that perhaps were not worth persuing. Also under this category falls doig things twice because you didnt go the full hog the first time...
and b). Not bringing the project together in a tighter time frame. This can be due to funds or time. In my case the latter as I was not in NZ much. The thing is I see lots of guys hold back on budget and the problem here is they eventually do press the button but find other components are now life's and require attention and it becomes catch up again. Its like a house. You buy it and you say youll fix things up. You never do until just before you sell it. A few weeks before you sell it you sit back and say how lovely it is now the rennovations are done. The thing is if you had have taken the hit to do the rennovations 5 years before when you bought the house you would have had the benefit of them for that time, improved lifestyle and received no less on sale day! The moral of the story here is beg, borrow, steal the money to make the project happen then get on and enjoy driving it instead of dragging it out 5 years and then never having the budget to complete because you are busy replacing wear items a second time around...
These are just IMHO of course but Im not to proud to stand up and tell others where I made mistakes and hopefully it can help others like John on this board make the right choices when they come to do similar.
Last bit of advice. If you really want to create something that works very well and cohesively you need as much information as you can get to make informed decisions. Research is excellent but dont be shy to pick up the phone and call Colin Belton in the UK or Steve Weiner in the US and pick their brains. Ive done that and much much more to learn what is possible and these guys love to share their knowledge. If you dont know whats out there then when you spend your money you dont always know you have the best you can afford, or the item that best does what you want it to do...
04-06-2013, 11:15 PM
#2015
Rennlist Member
Hey Sean. On the PCNA thing agree.
I know you all don't expect any less from me, but Im going to put it out there and just say as a 14 years member of PCNZ Ive generally been quite disappointed with the quality of the company over the years. OK I'm not NZ based and I probably only get to 2 events a year (last one was probably Porsche Parade) but generally over the years its been old folk Ive had little in common with. Nice people but I dont own a 356 or 72 T. Very cliquey set. The Bridgestone race guys have been a breed to their own and generally stayed away from the usual PCNZ gatherings....
That said things have improved over the last 5 years since Mac Storey was President and the Notts departed. I does seem things are looking up for the better.
However, the thing that has excited me most in the last 13 years has happened in the last 2 years. Meeting Sean, Paul and other son this board who have a "can do" attitude and the creation via Sean and Steve R of this core group at HD playdays etc.
My personal opinion is that Steve Rs group and this board has some very like minded individuals that have started something that could be very interested. Similar age groups, position in life, passions and interests have definitely helped and of course Steve has really stepped up here and been incredibly generous in helping provide a platform to make this happen.
I only wish I was on the ground to give more energy to this. Sean gave this alot of energy in the short time he was in NZ and now is offshore too. Where possible I know both of us will continue to do everything we can to help make whats been started a success. People like Paul, Matt, Peter, Jason and others are critical to keeping momentum in this group.
If you look outside of NZ to the US, Europe or the UK you will find splinter groups such as DDK, Tipec and similar that satisfy the needs of a smaller enthusiast group better than official Porsche Clubs can achieve.
All Im saying is this new small group that's been collected of like minded individuals has potential yet untapped and at the risk of sounding twee I think there is risk in spreading focus and attention to far and wide to PCNZ mainstream events right now and loosing what has been created here. the winder months are almost upon us and if this Payday nameless group is to survive until spring it needs a core group of enthusiasts with focus and ideas to get it through.
The idea of a "track tour" next spring or summer is an excellent one. I know Sean and myself have discussed coming back for something like this. I understand some of us will want to "race" and simply doing closed circuit driving will not satisfy all of us forever. However many such as myself like the camaraderie such a group offers. Where else would you trade the keys with a mate for a few laps to enjoy something different for example? I know some in the group are more advanced and some such as Paul will get enjoyment from racing others, but then theres guys like Sean and myself that will not put our current machines into the heat of battle regularly and there are people like Pete and Matt that still need to drive to work in traffic in their steads! There will also be newbies such as John and I who until the 29th hadn't really seen a track for 8+ years and even then just for PCNZ DEs. So you have all levels, capabilities and different usage machines here....
Just my 2 cents. Some i
I know you all don't expect any less from me, but Im going to put it out there and just say as a 14 years member of PCNZ Ive generally been quite disappointed with the quality of the company over the years. OK I'm not NZ based and I probably only get to 2 events a year (last one was probably Porsche Parade) but generally over the years its been old folk Ive had little in common with. Nice people but I dont own a 356 or 72 T. Very cliquey set. The Bridgestone race guys have been a breed to their own and generally stayed away from the usual PCNZ gatherings....
That said things have improved over the last 5 years since Mac Storey was President and the Notts departed. I does seem things are looking up for the better.
However, the thing that has excited me most in the last 13 years has happened in the last 2 years. Meeting Sean, Paul and other son this board who have a "can do" attitude and the creation via Sean and Steve R of this core group at HD playdays etc.
My personal opinion is that Steve Rs group and this board has some very like minded individuals that have started something that could be very interested. Similar age groups, position in life, passions and interests have definitely helped and of course Steve has really stepped up here and been incredibly generous in helping provide a platform to make this happen.
I only wish I was on the ground to give more energy to this. Sean gave this alot of energy in the short time he was in NZ and now is offshore too. Where possible I know both of us will continue to do everything we can to help make whats been started a success. People like Paul, Matt, Peter, Jason and others are critical to keeping momentum in this group.
If you look outside of NZ to the US, Europe or the UK you will find splinter groups such as DDK, Tipec and similar that satisfy the needs of a smaller enthusiast group better than official Porsche Clubs can achieve.
All Im saying is this new small group that's been collected of like minded individuals has potential yet untapped and at the risk of sounding twee I think there is risk in spreading focus and attention to far and wide to PCNZ mainstream events right now and loosing what has been created here. the winder months are almost upon us and if this Payday nameless group is to survive until spring it needs a core group of enthusiasts with focus and ideas to get it through.
The idea of a "track tour" next spring or summer is an excellent one. I know Sean and myself have discussed coming back for something like this. I understand some of us will want to "race" and simply doing closed circuit driving will not satisfy all of us forever. However many such as myself like the camaraderie such a group offers. Where else would you trade the keys with a mate for a few laps to enjoy something different for example? I know some in the group are more advanced and some such as Paul will get enjoyment from racing others, but then theres guys like Sean and myself that will not put our current machines into the heat of battle regularly and there are people like Pete and Matt that still need to drive to work in traffic in their steads! There will also be newbies such as John and I who until the 29th hadn't really seen a track for 8+ years and even then just for PCNZ DEs. So you have all levels, capabilities and different usage machines here....
Just my 2 cents. Some i
04-07-2013, 07:22 AM
#2016
Rennlist Member
Here's some other wheel options from Gert in Belgium. Good value too. I have some freight inbound from him later this month if someone wants to share freight costs.
These ones have the Porsche script on them which I think is more desirable for little extra cost.
Also don't forget Rennline have just released this lovely quick release kit. They do lovely stuff and a mate in the UK has just ordered this and reckons it the dogs bollocks. If you email Rennline mention me to Tom the owner and he may fox you up with a discount code. Its very resonably priced race gear for the 911...
John. Im not sure if you now have a fully fleshed concept of what you aim to achieve with this car. I was thinking about your suspension as this is perhaps the one area you MUST nail to get any reasonable lap times. I think you may benefit from monoball rear hats for your shocks and front adjustable camber plates if you are going to take this track thing further into racing. Have a look at the Rennline products here as they are used by 964 & 993 racers the world over and are excellent quality and value. Also their odyseey Gellcel battery mount with cut off switch. The odyseey battery can be bought in Auckland all all up I saved 12 kg here which was usefull and the cut off switch is a great feature.
These ones have the Porsche script on them which I think is more desirable for little extra cost.
Also don't forget Rennline have just released this lovely quick release kit. They do lovely stuff and a mate in the UK has just ordered this and reckons it the dogs bollocks. If you email Rennline mention me to Tom the owner and he may fox you up with a discount code. Its very resonably priced race gear for the 911...
John. Im not sure if you now have a fully fleshed concept of what you aim to achieve with this car. I was thinking about your suspension as this is perhaps the one area you MUST nail to get any reasonable lap times. I think you may benefit from monoball rear hats for your shocks and front adjustable camber plates if you are going to take this track thing further into racing. Have a look at the Rennline products here as they are used by 964 & 993 racers the world over and are excellent quality and value. Also their odyseey Gellcel battery mount with cut off switch. The odyseey battery can be bought in Auckland all all up I saved 12 kg here which was usefull and the cut off switch is a great feature.
The current concept is standard power, some equipment deletion, and a track focussed driving set-up, but not race level. I want a set of track wheels and tyres, a new steering wheel, and Peter's suspension settings.
Aside from the engine refresh I will do the oil lines and the front rubbers. We all know that control arms go, but I want to check any other rubber pieces to make the steering as sharp as it was out of the factory.
If/when I start to get on the tail of the rest of you, I'll reassess things. Right now there are a lot of competing priorities, including the house renovation. I'm keen on the track visit trip, but am unlikely to go wheel to wheel racing.
04-07-2013, 07:24 AM
#2017
Rennlist Member
Paul, if/when you're talking to the PCNZ guys, see what is being proposed. I wonder if we can tack on circuits at race days, but not actually race. Like a Targa Tour at the track.
04-07-2013, 07:31 AM
#2018
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04-07-2013, 09:14 AM
#2019
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Hi John.
Peter has it. I used the P93 subgroup. They will fit fine on P64.
Your 964 plan sounds sensible. I have no doubt you'll pick it up quickly John, and will be wheeling it with the best of them probably before I next get back!
Peter has it. I used the P93 subgroup. They will fit fine on P64.
Your 964 plan sounds sensible. I have no doubt you'll pick it up quickly John, and will be wheeling it with the best of them probably before I next get back!
04-07-2013, 04:05 PM
#2020
Rennlist Member
Sensible is the word. The goal is to enjoy driving to the best of my ability and widen the personal envelope. I'll see 5 or so outings per year for may be 3 or 4 years. The car just has to be reliable and inspire confidence on the track. It doesn't have to be the latest and greatest or be something it's not. Must catch up with Dean to see where the engine is at. Btw I'll go with the Momo mod 7 wheel and look at quick releases when I can see it fitted. That way I know what level of extension is best for my comfort.
04-07-2013, 04:08 PM
#2021
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04-07-2013, 04:41 PM
#2022
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I think you would enjoy Classic Trails John. This is how I get my track time up. I've been doing them for the last 2 years.
There is a time bar of 1.27, so you are already fast enough to be at the front of the pack. The good thing is you can practice your lines without putting too much stress on the car as you can't go flat out.
They are also part of the TACCOC weekends, so always lots of cool classic cars around.
There is only 1 race left this year, so you will have to wait for the Ice Breaker in Sept.
This gives you winter to get the car sorted for a summer of track events.
Last edited by kiwi 911; 04-08-2013 at 01:19 AM.
04-07-2013, 06:34 PM
#2023
Rennlist Member
I think you would enjoy Classic Trails John. This is how I get my track time up. I've been doing them for the last 2 years.
There is a time bar of 1.27, so you are already fast enough to be at the front of the pack. The good this is you can practice your lines without putting too much stress on the car as you can't go flat out.
They are also part of the TACCOC weekends, so always lots of cool classic cars around.
There is only 1 race left this year, so you will have to wait for the Ice Breaker in Sept.
This gives you winter to get the car sorted for a summer of track events.
There is a time bar of 1.27, so you are already fast enough to be at the front of the pack. The good this is you can practice your lines without putting too much stress on the car as you can't go flat out.
They are also part of the TACCOC weekends, so always lots of cool classic cars around.
There is only 1 race left this year, so you will have to wait for the Ice Breaker in Sept.
This gives you winter to get the car sorted for a summer of track events.
04-07-2013, 07:04 PM
#2024
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I think you would enjoy Classic Trails John. This is how I get my track time up. I've been doing them for the last 2 years.
There is a time bar of 1.27, so you are already fast enough to be at the front of the pack. The good this is you can practice your lines without putting too much stress on the car as you can't go flat out.
They are also part of the TACCOC weekends, so always lots of cool classic cars around.
There is only 1 race left this year, so you will have to wait for the Ice Breaker in Sept.
This gives you winter to get the car sorted for a summer of track events.
There is a time bar of 1.27, so you are already fast enough to be at the front of the pack. The good this is you can practice your lines without putting too much stress on the car as you can't go flat out.
They are also part of the TACCOC weekends, so always lots of cool classic cars around.
There is only 1 race left this year, so you will have to wait for the Ice Breaker in Sept.
This gives you winter to get the car sorted for a summer of track events.
04-07-2013, 09:13 PM
#2025
Rennlist Member
So TACCOC is a regularity trial. You have to achieve the least variance per lap to your stated time to win.
If the maximum stated lap time allowed is 1.27 at HD then I assume this is actually quite high by the age/type/standards of the vehicles that take part.
Im curious. If you best consisent Playday lap in a 964 or similar vintage 911 is say 1.20 and assuming you stated you regularity time as 1.27, assuming 2-3 seconds a lap for overtaking slower traffic on the track would it not be more difficult to drive say 5 seconds slower per lap consistently with traffic than say choosing a time that was close to the maximum your 1960s Alfa was capable of in your hands at for example 1.28?
Obviously Paul and maybe Nik have been regulars in this type of event so Im curious as to where the challenges are for cars and drivers quicker than the nominated fastest time when taking place on the day. Looking at the blurb on the site the winners look like they are achieving regularity of 0.2 second a lap or below. Whilst most of us on Playday could probably consistently lap our vehicles within 0.5 seconds a lap on a fairly clear track it would appear it is much harder when driving slower than your/your cars ability with traffic. As I say, Im curious, is this a fair assumption?
If the maximum stated lap time allowed is 1.27 at HD then I assume this is actually quite high by the age/type/standards of the vehicles that take part.
Im curious. If you best consisent Playday lap in a 964 or similar vintage 911 is say 1.20 and assuming you stated you regularity time as 1.27, assuming 2-3 seconds a lap for overtaking slower traffic on the track would it not be more difficult to drive say 5 seconds slower per lap consistently with traffic than say choosing a time that was close to the maximum your 1960s Alfa was capable of in your hands at for example 1.28?
Obviously Paul and maybe Nik have been regulars in this type of event so Im curious as to where the challenges are for cars and drivers quicker than the nominated fastest time when taking place on the day. Looking at the blurb on the site the winners look like they are achieving regularity of 0.2 second a lap or below. Whilst most of us on Playday could probably consistently lap our vehicles within 0.5 seconds a lap on a fairly clear track it would appear it is much harder when driving slower than your/your cars ability with traffic. As I say, Im curious, is this a fair assumption?