KiwiSean

Matt, the cars mint mate. I agree with Macca on the pricing. If it wasn't red I'd have given you asking price for it already. Good luck with the sale.

I like modifying old cars but if I was going daily driver I would go modern. I loved my Cayenne S and I think a new GT3 or Carrera S would be even better but needed the room for carting spare sets of wheels and what not to and from the track. My two cents.

John McM

.

Agree. I did my "three in 30 minutes" routine last night i.e. took all of the cars for a drive within 30 minutes, which cemented the core reason I have each of my cars. Turbo 3.6 could be a DD on clear commute, but stop/start traffic isn't its forte. C4 has a lightweight flywheel and primary muffler bypass with a P-extension spoiler, great for the track but I don't want to eyeball fellow commuters while I drown out their morning tranquillity keeping the revs up. 996TT is quiet, tiptronic and has the best AC, radio etc.

I may not keep all three, but my current sense is that the C4 needs more modification and can be done because it doesn’t have to cover a whole range of tasks. It would be a difficult DD even in its current spec.

Macca

Hey John & Others.

I think in the perfect world a single car that car could do everything would be the best solution. Modern offerings are trying increasingly to achieve that (aka new 991 GT3) but loose of course the appear of the light weight old skool format.

I have the 4 car family T-shirt and for a while I thought this suited me well. RS2+993+968+VR6 etc. The format changed a few times with various predecessors for the 968 (993RS+996 GT3) and the daily driver (RS2 to Subaru B4 etc). Everyone is different but over 2-3 years I got tired of there being always something wrong with one or two of these cars at any one time. When insurance, maintenance and consumerables were added together it would no doubt have been a more stress free option to have bought a 12 months old 135i for the missus and a newer DD for myself and just kept the 993 (which has never thrown any major issues). However its horses for courses and I think you have to try the multiple P car ownership thing to see if it is for you.

Building a single Porsche car to cover all occasions using an older base is certainly possible. Ive been trying. Granted I don't do commuter traffic or get the car out early so I get away with a louder exhaust but would put the factory mufflers back on if I were living in NZ using it every day. Building a fast road car suitable for Targa, auto X, gymkhana etc whilst still being practical and reliable daily transport is not too much of a stretch. Building a car that can do all of that and be a good track car is more challenging as many of the requirements of track don't work as well on the road (DD etc). Modern fully adjustable suspension is probably a good start point. Weight reduction without the expense of practical features such as air con, radio, comfortable seats is where the equation becomes more difficult/expensive to address with compromises often solved only by $$$ or sometimes not at all.

I still have a list of improvements for the 993 which Id like to make over the next few years that include lighter wheels (one piece) and tyres, RS front uprights, maybe some 993TT+993Rs brakes and definitely some further engine work (3.9L, 9M heads etc for 360 bhp). I don't think Ill ever get the weight significantly below 1295 kg in the format I wish to enjoy the car (Tourer, Targa, Track and DD when in NZ). Bigger brakes and discs weight offset lighter wheels and tyres. Maybe RS CF door cards can offer 10-15kg all up savings and any alloy hood another 7kg but without removing air con, stereo, carpets etc it becomes a game of using smart technology to get weight out and its no easy feat....

gt38088

[QUOTE][/You may not have depreciation, maybe even some appreciation - but hell do you pay for in maintenance QUOTE]
Not if you've paid 996 money because its all new? Thats why it requires getting head around. You end up with a practically new modified old car. I'm lucky I don't have a massive daily commute 996gt3 level of practicality is fine by me. Old car is probably noisier though.

[QUOTE][C4 needs more modification and can be done because it doesn’t have to cover a whole range of tasks/QUOTE]
agree - fit for purpose is the motto and when its track faster = harder until its useless for a road trip. My targa car is about at its limit - have to drive it 3000km in 5 days and race on public roads so shocks and spring rates are much softer than track set up but clutch is savage and just installing straight cut gears so the wine is going to be some thing else so I have just bought touring headsets to plug into the comms.

gt38088

I think I'm trying to rationalise building a DD car like macca's 993 but off an older chassis and not quite so extreme (3.9) 3.4 will do me fine. Sporty and reasonably sharp but not for track (unless mainly social) or targa. Other cars for that.

John McM

I have spent 17 of the last 20 years in developing countries. For that reason, car-wise, I likely have arrested development. No doubt the current scatter gun approach will be refined. Right now, I’m establishing patterns of usage and likes/dislikes. Just as I am with the house renovation.

Truth be known, I’m also trying to digest the thought that the Turbo 3.6 is the most likely to go. I [very subjectively I know] can’t think of another car that has its mixture of beauty, power, and character. However it’s too valuable to use as a DD or Track Car. Therefore it's the least useful at this point in my life.

I’ll likely modify the C4 to a point where I think it’s approaching the Turbo 3.6, then sell the latter. There are more important things in life!

kiwi 911

[quote=gt38088;10320968][QUOTE][/You may not have depreciation, maybe even some appreciation - but hell do you pay for in maintenance QUOTE]
Not if you've paid 996 money because its all new? Thats why it requires getting head around. You end up with a practically new modified old car. I'm lucky I don't have a massive daily commute 996gt3 level of practicality is fine by me. Old car is probably noisier though.

Just an observation but I wouldn't call 996's new anymore - 2 shapes out of date, 10 + years old, 100km's +, I'd say any car on original suspension, engine, rubbers etc. would need looking at quite soon if making regular visits to the track

I assume you have a 3.2 Carrera in mind with 100mm piston kit to make a 3.4? I have driven one of these in Aussie with 270hp in club sport trim (approx. 1100kg's), was very quick.

Macca

Fill your boots John. Id be doing the same if in your position. In our position owning one old car is challenging enough and owning the two (M5) is pushing it. That said the 993 has never dropped oil, broken down or been a problem child. However it has basically been re built ground up so I guess id be disappointing if it weren't totally reliable....

GT338088. Building some thing from ground up and a 3.2 chassis would be very enjoyable. I goyt alot of satisfaction from doing this. Its important to have a very clear idea of what you are trying to achieve before you start and it sounds like you have plenty of track and targa experience to know what you need. Most using the older platforms go for a retro theme in terms of optics. This might be ST to RS or RSR. The 964 and 993 platforms seem to encourage more "hot rodding" or "outlaw style" collaborations. 3.4 is perfect for an earlier conversion. For a 3.6 base 3.85 or 4.0 litres provides a nice improvement in torque and performance.

Here was the list of stuff on mine when I finished. There's been a few small additions since then. I think it was 400 individual component changes. If you dont touch the engine you save alot of money. Doing anything moderate to extreme with the 3.6 will cost 20-40k nzd. If you dont do anything with the interior you can also save alot of money as getting the interior right is very labour intensive (i.e. upholsters etc). Anyway this is just for curiosity sake but does give an idea of what you can do. The list of things left to be done is small but heavy $$$ wise so Ill get another 1-2 years out of te current platform before taking it to the next level. This is the third iteration of the car in 13 years so with some imagination and a budget you can reinvent these cars every 5 years and keep the whole concept fresh and enticing..

ENGINE/EXHAUST - 308bhp/270lbft

1 JDR DC21-114 (993SS) Custom Ground Camshafts
2 JDR solid built rockers
3 JDR Elephant Foot adjusters
4 LINK G4 Xtreme ECU fully custom programmed.
5 Rothsport racing RS Single Pulley halves x 2 in gold alloy
6 Replacement Bosch 32lb high flow "red devil" injectors x 6
7 MSDS Dual Cone filter with custom alloy inlet tube and MAP sensor
8 Factory RS single pulley hub
9 RS style Carbon Fiber heater bypass tube
10 Carbon Fibre Engine Fuse box cover
11 Carbon Fibre Electrical connection box cover rear
12 Factory RS Engine Mounts
13 Rennline reinforced engine carrier
14 Dach X Catless bypass pipes
15 FD Motorsport Stage II mufflers ceramic coated
16 Porsche Motorsound exhaust tips
17 Ultimate brand triple density high quality engine sound pad
18 Porsche RS Dual belt crank pulley

TRANSMISSION/DRIVETRAIN

1 Factory RS LWFC
2 RSR transmission mount
3 Cup Car clutch breather delete
4 Factory RS Short shift kit
5 FD Motorsport RS Heim balled front and rear control rod
6 Carbon fibre transmission cover
7 Factory RS Porsche Motorsport 4 plate 40/65 LSD

SUSPENSION

1 Bilstein PSS10 10 way adjustable coilover dampers
2 Factory RS adjustable front and rear swaybars with RS droplinks
3 Walrod nothalene front A arm bushes
4 Custom pinned front tie rods
5 993 GT2 Evo style solid rear shim kit
6 Carbon fibre strut brace

WHEELS/BRAKES

1 Kerscher KRS 18" custom 3 piece lightweight racing wheels with custom P61 Steel grey centres
2 Factory Front reinforcement brace for 18" wheels
3 PW61 Steel Grey custom silver crested centre caps
4 Bridgestone RE11 semi dot rates tires
5 AMG steel racing valve stems
6 Goodrich braided stainless steel brake lines
7 Techart plumbed & deflected front bumper bake ducts
8 Front and Rear Brake disc backing plate delete

BODY

1 Factory 993T front bumper upgrade
2 RUF A pillar aero inserts
3 Gerts front protection bar (colour keyed black)

ELECTRICAL

1 Techart front bumper fog lights upgraded HID & LED keeper light
2 HID headlight upgrade
3 Factory Auto dimming rear vision mirror
4 Factory Rain sensor window washers
5 Kenwood K-CD01 Burr Brown 1 bit DAC head unit
6 Boston Accoustic front speakers with cross over and tweeters
7 Factory HiFi Upgrade rear speakers
8 LED upgraded full interior lights including trunk and hood lights
9 Auto lift/retract driver side window module
10 LED upgraded Instrument and main dashboard cluster lights
11 Odyssey 925 Gell Cell light weight battery
12 Rennline lightweight battery bracket
13 Quick disconnect battery system/switch
14 CTEK pre wired quick/trickle charge port with battery status indicator LEDs


INTERIOR

1 Recaro style carbon race seats - Classic Grey with grey alancantera inserts & deviated stitching
2 Factory Classic Grey interior overmats x 4
3 Porsche Factory red coloured front & rear seatbelts
4 Carbon Fibre diagnostic port cover
5 Custom Grey Porsche Exclusive style "anniversary" gauge dials
6 Full 6 piece carbon fibre dash kit
7 Factory Carbon fiber interior door handles
8 Carbon fiber four piece centre console pack
9 Factory carbon fibre & alloy gear shifter - Classic Grey
10 Factory carbon fibre & alloy handbrake - Classic Grey
11 Carbon fibre door panel inserts
12 Custom 6 piece carbon fibre dash end caps
13 Custom 2 piece carbon fibre door end caps
14 Alloy instrument surrounds x 5 - Design911
15 Billet alloy fuel filler relase - FVD
16 Billet alloy dash control **** covers x 5 - Design911
17 Billet alloy ignition key surround - Design911
18 Carbon fibre door sills with "Carrera" script
19 Carbon Fibre HVAC control cover
20 Sullivan Racing 3 x billet drilled alloy pedals - black anodised
21 Safecraft billet alloy quick release Exinguisher holder/bracket
22 BK Univeral SS Exintguisher mount bar
23 Dry powder 600gram Fire Extinguisher
24 Inventiva Concepts billet alloy cup holder black anodised - RHD
25 Factory classic grey carbon fiber three spoke 996 steering wheel & leather airbag
26 Custom silver steering wheel crest
27 Custom bead blasted SS rear hood release

COSMETIC CHANGES

1 Clear front side repeaters - Hella
2 Factory clear front indicators (aka C4S/Turbo)
3 Factory red rear indicators (aka C4S/Turbo)
4 Alloy 997 fuel filter cap
5 Steel grey rear spolier grill insert
6 Steel grey front turbo bumper grill inserts
7 Steel grey Techart brake duct opening
8 Steel grey colour keyed mirrors
9 Factory steel grey rear Carrera badge
10 Custom "Anniversary" silver grey decals rear fenders
11 Steel grey colour keyed alternator fan
12 Custom coloured Hipercolour black coated alternator fan housing with P61W steel grey fan
13 P61W Steel grey colour keyed intake manifold
14 Brembo red painted brake capliers

OTHER

1 Carbon fiber benzine pump cover
2 3M Clear protection film
3 Rear mounted Rennline racing tow eyes

kiwi 911

Macca - do you keep a spreadsheet of costs too?

PHG

Serious input Macca, does the ciggy lighter still work? If the purist could accept the above premise that the 996 is now an old car, albeit water cooled, why not buy a 996TT, do what Paul suggested, and do the suspension,camber etc, upgrade to 500hp with a flash, and it would do all of the above,Targa,track day etc without making a noise.. and Mum could still pick up the grandkids after school (as mine did, without my knowledge!!).BTW; I am looking in China for tyres/pricing as have good contact there..I'll keep all informed.Was very helpful to go back on this forum and see all the input re tyres from you experienced masochists.. I have so much to learn.

Macca

Kiwi911. I'm known as the Spreadsheet King...LOL!

Phil. LOL! Yes the ciggy lighter still works too! Infact the car has a far higher level of "comfort" appointments than the factory model offered as standard (dimming rear vision mirror, auto sense wipers, a good head unit and speakers, CF interior, LED light internal & dials, auto lift driver window etc).

IMHO Chinese rubber wouldn't be worth even the cost of the freight. There are tried and tested brands that 1000s of people have given feedback on here on RL as well as tirerack.com. Its far cheaper to not make a mistake than do things twice...in terms of known performance brands typically the US is the cheapest market in the world (based on volume) however with the GBP the way it is the UK is now comparable and their freight is surprisingly competitive....

Typically "the purist" is someone for whom an aircooled car built on the same platform as the 1965 911 2.0 is the only choice. Many of us here own/or have owned 996/997 but I think if any of us were to dump 100k+ into modifying a car to the level previously mentioned we would choose an aircooled model as a base. The chances of appreciation are probably also greater over time (although I dont think any of us are particularly focused on that). To make the changes you mention to the 996TT you would likely be better served selling the 996TT and buying a 996 GT3. As for noise, I for one find the unadulterated naturally aspirated noise is part of the addiction....

kiwi 911

Phil - nothing wrong with your suggestion above - a 500hp 996TT with dialed in suspension would be fabulous for an all-round car.

The issue is - no car can do all things - a road car makes a crap track car, and an excellent track car is awful on the road - everyone ends up on a slippery slope somewhere in-between and you need to be careful to not end up with a compromised car that's not necessarily good on the road or the track.

In a perfect world better to have purpose built cars for each activity. In the real world (for most) - you repeat others mistakes with some form of compromised car.

I would be nervous about buying track rubber in China too. You would really need to trust the person you are buying from or have someone else go first and vouch for the quality of the tires.

Just ask Macca - he had a bad experience with the last lez-bot he imported from China.

PHG

cheers Paul
actually just chasing Pirelli and Bridgestone road tyres..will talk with you about track or semi slicks if I get that far.. understand re road v track, but the general theme seems that many are trying to find the best compromise to make the garage larger for Mums SUV

Macca

Its true Paul. I ordered a Soyarama Les-bot from China and they sent be a fakie. All she does is give me the bird!

John McM

I'm going the fake way as well, but I'm happy with my new decals. Less than one week to go to HD.