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You don't really feel the weight on a properly dialed-in Taycan Turbo S.
The low CoG and gobs of torque really mask the stated numbers.
Truth be told, the E90 M3 felt heavier on track than did the Taycan.
After all, you drive a car, not numbers on paper.
Alot of gripes that people have about "heavy cars" is confirmation bias from being told what the curb weight is before they start driving.
confirmation bias can go both ways.
I put MPP coilovers on my Tesla M3P. Much better than stock suspension. Coilovers are certainly not equal to a Porsche suspension, however….
Last year, I test drove my 4040lb M3P back to back on the same curvy canyon roads the same day as a 5120lb Taycan Turbo.
I’ve tracked extensively and I could certainly feel that extra thousand pounds in the Taycan while braking, accelerating, and certain curves. After driving both back to back on backroads (not track) I preferred my lighter, smaller, M3P (with coilovers) over the Taycan.
I hope porsche can get close to their target weight of 3650lbs for the EV cayman.
The EV equivalent to the old performance equation (power, low cost, longevity): Power, Endurance, Light weight - pick any two.
My Cayman S under most efficient conditions like freeway and little stop and go will get 31 mpg and about 8 on track, a 25% reduction for performance driving.
The Tesla model S with the 85 kWh battery version has a battery weight of 1188 lbs. How much battery capacity will the 983 need to have decent legs when driven aggressively, I wonder? Does the range of an EV also decrease as significantly on track as does an ICE car? Honest question.
The EV equivalent to the old performance equation (power, low cost, longevity): Power, Endurance, Light weight - pick any two.
My Cayman S under most efficient conditions like freeway and little stop and go will get 31 mpg and about 8 on track, a 25% reduction for performance driving.
The Tesla model S with the 85 kWh battery version has a battery weight of 1188 lbs. How much battery capacity will the 983 need to have decent legs when driven aggressively, I wonder? Does the range of an EV also decrease as significantly on track as does an ICE car? Honest question.
Range of EVs falls off a cliff when driving on track. This is why ipse mentioned the chargers at thermal. You can’t consider taking an EV to a track without fast chargers.
The EV equivalent to the old performance equation (power, low cost, longevity): Power, Endurance, Light weight - pick any two.
My Cayman S under most efficient conditions like freeway and little stop and go will get 31 mpg and about 8 on track, a 25% reduction for performance driving.
The Tesla model S with the 85 kWh battery version has a battery weight of 1188 lbs. How much battery capacity will the 983 need to have decent legs when driven aggressively, I wonder? Does the range of an EV also decrease as significantly on track as does an ICE car? Honest question.
25 % reduction is mis-stated. Range is 25% of max or a 75% reduction or there-abouts. Getting old.
The "falling off a cliff" thing is what I suspected as related to track/performance driving. This doesn't square well with the sports car mindset. I hope Porsche can put it together so that it works. If anyone can do it...............well maybe Elon can too.
Porsche best not dither getting the 718 EV to market. And it better be reasonably light, and not ridiculously priced. Otherwise, Caterham might be coming to eat their lunch in their 2600 lb. RWD EV with 268 hp and 400 km range at around $100k.
Porsche best not dither getting the 718 EV to market. And it better be reasonably light, and not ridiculously priced. Otherwise, Caterham might be coming to eat their lunch in their 2600 lb. RWD EV with 268 hp and 400 km range at around $100k.
Lmao, those target specs are always hilarious. Just look at Tesla and the Cybertruck and what was promised and what really is available lol!
Range of EVs falls off a cliff when driving on track. This is why ipse mentioned the chargers at thermal. You can’t consider taking an EV to a track without fast chargers.
Their performance falls off a cliff too at the track. You get maybe 10-15 minutes of wow. I've instructed a couple tesla model 3 Performances and from what I remember after 60% they're basically noticeably slower. I remember at full power we were doing over 180kph on a straight, and at some point around 50% or less we were doing like 140kph on that same straight exiting the corner onto it much faster.
As for the Plaid, the brakes can't handle the car either, and there is no braking solution for that thing that makes it trackable, at least for my local tracks (one is pretty hard on brakes admittedly).
Their performance falls off a cliff too at the track. You get maybe 10-15 minutes of wow. I've instructed a couple tesla model 3 Performances and from what I remember after 60% they're basically noticeably slower. I remember at full power we were doing over 180kph on a straight, and at some point around 50% or less we were doing like 140kph on that same straight exiting the corner onto it much faster.
As for the Plaid, the brakes can't handle the car either, and there is no braking solution for that thing that makes it trackable, at least for my local tracks (one is pretty hard on brakes admittedly).
Not just track, try driving in the mountains for 45 minutes+ (especially going up). I took my old Taycan (with large battery) to my typical mountain roads and couldn't even take it the full distance I normally go before turning around worried about the battery going dead.
I would say the absolute max battery in this car is 65kW (due to packaging) and I'll bet weight is 3,500+lbs. Maybe on a 80 degree day on a completely flat surface, windows up and A/C off, driving like grandma, and in "range" mode you might kiss 200 miles range with a decent tailwind. Driven like a Porsche, maybe 100 miles range?
Not just track, try driving in the mountains for 45 minutes+ (especially going up). I took my old Taycan (with large battery) to my typical mountain roads and couldn't even take it the full distance I normally go before turning around worried about the battery going dead.
I would say the absolute max battery in this car is 65kW (due to packaging) and I'll bet weight is 3,500+lbs. Maybe on a 80 degree day on a completely flat surface, windows up and A/C off, driving like grandma, and in "range" mode you might kiss 200 miles range with a decent tailwind. Driven like a Porsche, maybe 100 miles range?
I think at some point the automakers are banking on the idea that batteries will get at least 2x better, magically or otherwise. That will be enough to kill ICE for most civilian uses. If and when that happens, there will be a terrible price to pay for those who don't have platforms ready to sell with those batteries.
Will be interesting to see if the gamble pays off. A lot of chemists and material scientists think we've hit the end of the road as far as battery energy density is concerned. A lot of them thought that 30 years ago, though, and we've achieved at least a 2x gain since then. On the other hand, if we have to wait 30 more years, efforts and money spent now are largely wasted.
As far as I'm aware, not much has happened after the graph above ended circa 2010. The move to LiFePO4 has, if anything, taken us backwards a little.
Last edited by Larson E. Rapp; 12-22-2023 at 01:41 PM.
We are nowhere near that yet, nor will the 718EV launch with solid state tech.
I think this is purely a compliance vehicle. Look at the half-hearted Toyota BZ4X and Lexus sibling. They are a smart, high volume / profit company. They had to have known that it would flop, and it did spectacularly.
For those who are skeptical, a quick indicator is simple to determine. Go to your local dealer, ask how many people are interested in an EV 718 based on their deposits / allocation list? Now compare that to the GTS 4.0 allocations. The EV 718 isn’t a secret so many enthusiasts know it’s coming - there was a list 5 years ago at my dealer for a GT4RS that was merely a pipe dream at the time.
Also, the largest forum on the internet for all things Porsche and there is 1 thread on a whole new sports car platform? Yikes. DOA.
Also, the largest forum on the internet for all things Porsche and there is 1 thread on a whole new sports car platform? Yikes. DOA.
Lol. Indisputable fact and the entire argument summed up in one sentence.
And a good chunk of that one thread thinks the recipe is going to suck. It's like reading the recipe for a cake and seeing it has no sugar and labeled as a healthy alternative. You dont need to try it to know 99% chance it sucks
I'm glad I'm not in the C-suite at an automaker who has to make these decisions. That said, I still think the four-banger 718s should have been electric from the get-go. They would have sold just as well, and Porsche would now have the engineering and marketing experience they need, instead of having to guess at what will happen.
There is at least some demand for high-margin EV sports cars, given that people have been shoving six-figure deposits at Musk for a new Roadster for years now. People who are into those are really into them.
We are nowhere near that yet, nor will the 718EV launch with solid state tech.
I think this is purely a compliance vehicle. Look at the half-hearted Toyota BZ4X and Lexus sibling. They are a smart, high volume / profit company. They had to have known that it would flop, and it did spectacularly.
For those who are skeptical, a quick indicator is simple to determine. Go to your local dealer, ask how many people are interested in an EV 718 based on their deposits / allocation list? Now compare that to the GTS 4.0 allocations. The EV 718 isn’t a secret so many enthusiasts know it’s coming - there was a list 5 years ago at my dealer for a GT4RS that was merely a pipe dream at the time.
Also, the largest forum on the internet for all things Porsche and there is 1 thread on a whole new sports car platform? Yikes. DOA.
On the money. Ive yet to meet one person who has registered interest, wants, or intends to buy one of these things. Hence the run on the GTS 4.0.
It's funny, long lines to buy 718s yet their sales are near half of the Taycan, which had a less than stellar year sales wise, and nearly matched 911 numbers. I think this 718 EV could create new buyers for Porsche, and if they continue offering combustion versions for current enthusiasts it will be a win-win.
12-17-2023, 04:35 PM
