TXshaggy

You know it’s a new platform, right?

VAG says PPE has up to a 700 km WLTP range.

Guess we’ll see…

wizee

I don’t own a Taycan, but I rented one for a few days and the time I did some experimentation with range, I drove around 420 km and still had around 7% left at the end, and I was driving normally (mix of highway around 120-130 km/h, city driving, and some back roads). With that said, for 80-20% usage it would be around 300 km on a current Taycan.

981KMAN

@wizee

Well, you lost me at "Tesla’s reliable charger network." My experience is that our (US) Charging Network has a long way to go to be considered "reliable". It might get there in the distant future, yet it far from reliable today. EVs today are mostly "single family home based" and charge at night. Apartments and condos have little if any Charging Infrastructure.

I think a lot of what you forecast will probably happen, yet not in the time frame you project. Petrol fuel station will be around for a long time to come, like 50+ years. Many Ford F150 sold today with a V8/6 ICE will be around for the next 20 years (over 600,000 sold in 2023). Add the Hybrids that also use petrol and you can add another 20+ years. Then we have the long haul diesel trucks that have no currently usable EV technology. As you say, technology will change, yet not as fast as some folks think.

The EV "pendulum" has already started to swing back towards ICE, with Ford & GM delaying new EV production and moving to hybrids. Add Toyota, who from day 1 has said no wholesale move to BEV, and has concentrated on Hybrid technology. I can list several other auto manufacturers, you get the message that BEVs in their current form are not a mainstream product, at least not in the USA. All of this adds up to Petrol stations being around for a long time to come. So no worries about finding a gas station in a "couple of decades", there will still be plenty around!

Zhao

Here is a real life example on range. I have a Tesla, and if I want to go visit a relative in rural farmville, its not that far for one relative, about 100km away, which is no big deal right, especially as my Tesla can do double that range. However, my projected trip right now, in only -5 to 5c temps is about 60% bat life when i get there, and there is no charging station there. So my projected trip back is likely going to put me at 20% when I return home. In winter, it's not wise to run a vehicle to the ragged edge of fuel on the highway as anything can happen. To give an example of why, I did a trip to a city 300km away for business this month, and on the way back the highway was shut down for a 10 semi pile up. I had to detour god knows where to get around it, or I equally could have been stuck in the middle of it idling while they reopened the highway.

20 minutes of use at tracks doesn't sound right either. It's more like 10 minutes for a tesla performance, because it can't handle the heat. I've instructed more than one of those and have seen their limitations first hand. And even then the next 10 minute session you're not running at peak performance because the bat is already drained too much. Usable track power on a model 3 performance is like 80% to 50%, so only a 30% window of what the battery has. Not a big deal if there is a charging station there but power is not even an issue at a track right now because right now they're getting banned all for insurance reasons so what track is going to invest in a charging station?

Why is telsa information relevant? Because they're doing things better right now IMO, have more experience, and are all or nothing on EVs. If Telsa can't do it GL to another company who's only just dipping thier feet into EVs.

For what it's worth though the tesla charging network in western canada is rock solid. Always chargers available and to date I haven't seen one broken. Even the free ones from flo or whatever else I haven't seen one broken yet. I know that'll change someday but right now zero complaints from me there.

TXshaggy

You don’t think VAG, the world’s largest car company, could compete with Tesla in EVs? Just dipping their feet?

VAG has briefed in some configs the PPE platform is capable of 700 kms.

worf928

You *are* aware of the giant VAG cariad cluster ph&ck right?

The one that delayed debut of *every* VAG EV car not already in production including PAG’s Macan?

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...in-2023-10-27/

Tesla’s a software company first, a battery company second, a manufacturing company third… somewhere further down the list is car design.

VAG and every other legacy manufacturer has that list reversed and it’s costing them.

Big Giant Companies screw the pooch vigorously, sometimes to death, and often.

TXshaggy

Not sure what the linked article has to do with the discussion, but seems like it’d be prudent to delay rather than rush to market.

Seems like we’re bench racing EVs against Tesla…and one hasn’t even been produced or launched.

Zhao

Kinda like how GM in the 80s was going to bury the Japanese?

And it's not me, it's the world saying they can't compete because they're not competing. They're at 10% EVs for what they're selling and they're in a lot of trouble. They can't sell their EV's in markets that want EVs (VW was the most popular brand in China, and it's pretty telling if they can't sell thier EVs there, a country that actually wants EVs), and their European demand for thier EV's just flew off a cliff. From my outlook Tesla is currently in lets make these things cheaper mode, while VW is in omg lets catch up to Tesla 5 years ago mode. It's only going to be maybe one model with a 700km range too (which Telsa has been offering for awhile now). Stuff like the Macan is going to end up around 500km I think. This 718EV isn't going to have crazy range. The taycan isn't going to jump significantly in range from what I've read. Plus the Macan EV is going to start at what, 80g USD? Perfect price point to buy something else is what I said to myself when I enquired about rough expected pricing on those at my dealer.

The interior design, fit and finish, and exterior styling are not enough to make up for crappy usability and a crazy price.

worf928

The linked article explained “cariad CF” which was an example of:

… offered as a counterpoint to you …

… scoffing at the notion that a small, focused company couldn’t bring down a giant or at least become its equal.

TXshaggy

Pretty sure VAG understands benchmark vehicles and I’d be surprised if they didn’t meet or exceed industry standard.

Not sure what GM did in the 80s helps the technical discussion.

Larson E. Rapp

Your faith in a company that has screwed up at literally every juncture is, well, inspiring.

What car companies are learning is that there is no such thing as a "car company" anymore. They are all systems integrators now. Ask GM about that, who just had a major launch bollixed up by the infotainment system of all things.

Tesla is an exception -- a fundamentally-uncopyable one because it seems they have the only competent in-house EV engineers these days. They are vertically-integrated the way Ford was in the 1920s, where rocks come in one door and cars come out another. That works great, right up until it doesn't.

TXshaggy

What exactly has PAG screwed up at literally every junction?

Sincerely curious.

worf928

Dude. I *just* gave you the latest example along with a link.

Before that: DieselGate.

Probably one or two in between and a bunch prior.

TXshaggy

So the software delay and dieselgate has screwed up *literally* every step of the 718 EV?

What does dieselgate have to do with the upcoming 718 EV launch…I’m not seeing the connection there.

Zhao

Are you trolling? There is no way you shouldn't be able to connect the dots...

You today: VAG is the largest, they're teh best and will never fail!
Your dad (probably) in the 80s: GM is the largest, they're the best and will never fail!
Your ancestor somewhere 400AD: Rome will never fall!

VAG is stumbling around in the dark when it comes to EVs. They had some success with pushing units based on just how huge they are but like I siad, look up whats happening to them in China. I'll leave you some breadcrumbs there: 20+ years ago they had over 50% marketshare. They're still the largest or maybe 2nd largest car manufacturer. They can't push EVs for the life of them there and their marketshare of EV's is rapidly approaching zero and that is not an exaggeration. I believe they saw a 30% reduction in sales (or market share, i forget) in the last year. I think their marketshare is about 2% of EVs, yet 10% of the country's car sales. That is a disaster since they're trying hard to switch their fleet to EVs. Compare that to Toyota in north america for example that has a similar 2% market share and is totally not interested in the slightest with switching to EVs and thinks they're not the future.

Meanwhile Tesla in China is rocking it on building EVs people want for prices they want. China also gave Telsa a sweet heart deal they never have given a company before and let Telsa go thier own way in China, which is a clear sign China thinks Tesla is far ahead of the rest when it comes to what they do.