The Giant EV General Discussion Thread
#571
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I don’t own a Taycan, but I rented one for a few days and the time I did some experimentation with range, I drove around 420 km and still had around 7% left at the end, and I was driving normally (mix of highway around 120-130 km/h, city driving, and some back roads). With that said, for 80-20% usage it would be around 300 km on a current Taycan.
#573
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@wizee
Well, you lost me at "Tesla’s reliable charger network." My experience is that our (US) Charging Network has a long way to go to be considered "reliable". It might get there in the distant future, yet it far from reliable today. EVs today are mostly "single family home based" and charge at night. Apartments and condos have little if any Charging Infrastructure.
I think a lot of what you forecast will probably happen, yet not in the time frame you project. Petrol fuel station will be around for a long time to come, like 50+ years. Many Ford F150 sold today with a V8/6 ICE will be around for the next 20 years (over 600,000 sold in 2023). Add the Hybrids that also use petrol and you can add another 20+ years. Then we have the long haul diesel trucks that have no currently usable EV technology. As you say, technology will change, yet not as fast as some folks think.
The EV "pendulum" has already started to swing back towards ICE, with Ford & GM delaying new EV production and moving to hybrids. Add Toyota, who from day 1 has said no wholesale move to BEV, and has concentrated on Hybrid technology. I can list several other auto manufacturers, you get the message that BEVs in their current form are not a mainstream product, at least not in the USA. All of this adds up to Petrol stations being around for a long time to come. So no worries about finding a gas station in a "couple of decades", there will still be plenty around!
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Well, you lost me at "Tesla’s reliable charger network." My experience is that our (US) Charging Network has a long way to go to be considered "reliable". It might get there in the distant future, yet it far from reliable today. EVs today are mostly "single family home based" and charge at night. Apartments and condos have little if any Charging Infrastructure.
I think a lot of what you forecast will probably happen, yet not in the time frame you project. Petrol fuel station will be around for a long time to come, like 50+ years. Many Ford F150 sold today with a V8/6 ICE will be around for the next 20 years (over 600,000 sold in 2023). Add the Hybrids that also use petrol and you can add another 20+ years. Then we have the long haul diesel trucks that have no currently usable EV technology. As you say, technology will change, yet not as fast as some folks think.
The EV "pendulum" has already started to swing back towards ICE, with Ford & GM delaying new EV production and moving to hybrids. Add Toyota, who from day 1 has said no wholesale move to BEV, and has concentrated on Hybrid technology. I can list several other auto manufacturers, you get the message that BEVs in their current form are not a mainstream product, at least not in the USA. All of this adds up to Petrol stations being around for a long time to come. So no worries about finding a gas station in a "couple of decades", there will still be plenty around!
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#574
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Always being fully fueled/charged when you leave home is great, and over time EV charging stations are proliferating for the occasional long drive. If you’re going on a road trip to a distant mountain, just fast charge in the nearest town to the mountain, and while you’ll use up considerable charge on the way up, quite a bit can be regained on the way down. I got around 450 km range in a Taycan driving it the way I normally do (mix of normal and enthusiastic driving), and that was with 2020-era EV technology. Probably the upcoming Taycan will get 500-550 km range with a similar style of driving.
EV tech is definitely advancing, and I do expect the new 718 EV’s tech to be outdated in terms of range and weight, but it will still keep most of the performance it started with; battery degradation on EVs tends to be quite minimal. I’m guessing the new 718 EV will have 400-450 km of range with my typical driving style, which is fine for most driving. I’ll just need to fast charge a couple times on road trips, but that shouldn’t be a problem once Porsches can use Tesla’s reliable charger network. I don’t expect the depreciation to be any worse than most ICE luxury cars.
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EV tech is definitely advancing, and I do expect the new 718 EV’s tech to be outdated in terms of range and weight, but it will still keep most of the performance it started with; battery degradation on EVs tends to be quite minimal. I’m guessing the new 718 EV will have 400-450 km of range with my typical driving style, which is fine for most driving. I’ll just need to fast charge a couple times on road trips, but that shouldn’t be a problem once Porsches can use Tesla’s reliable charger network. I don’t expect the depreciation to be any worse than most ICE luxury cars.
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20 minutes of use at tracks doesn't sound right either. It's more like 10 minutes for a tesla performance, because it can't handle the heat. I've instructed more than one of those and have seen their limitations first hand. And even then the next 10 minute session you're not running at peak performance because the bat is already drained too much. Usable track power on a model 3 performance is like 80% to 50%, so only a 30% window of what the battery has. Not a big deal if there is a charging station there but power is not even an issue at a track right now because right now they're getting banned all for insurance reasons so what track is going to invest in a charging station?
Why is telsa information relevant? Because they're doing things better right now IMO, have more experience, and are all or nothing on EVs. If Telsa can't do it GL to another company who's only just dipping thier feet into EVs.
For what it's worth though the tesla charging network in western canada is rock solid. Always chargers available and to date I haven't seen one broken. Even the free ones from flo or whatever else I haven't seen one broken yet. I know that'll change someday but right now zero complaints from me there.
Last edited by Zhao; 01-01-2024 at 02:29 AM.
#575
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VAG has briefed in some configs the PPE platform is capable of 700 kms.
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The one that delayed debut of *every* VAG EV car not already in production including PAG’s Macan?
https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...in-2023-10-27/
Tesla’s a software company first, a battery company second, a manufacturing company third… somewhere further down the list is car design.
VAG and every other legacy manufacturer has that list reversed and it’s costing them.
Big Giant Companies screw the pooch vigorously, sometimes to death, and often.
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Larson E. Rapp (01-01-2024)
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Not sure what the linked article has to do with the discussion, but seems like it’d be prudent to delay rather than rush to market.
Seems like we’re bench racing EVs against Tesla…and one hasn’t even been produced or launched.
Seems like we’re bench racing EVs against Tesla…and one hasn’t even been produced or launched.
#578
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And it's not me, it's the world saying they can't compete because they're not competing. They're at 10% EVs for what they're selling and they're in a lot of trouble. They can't sell their EV's in markets that want EVs (VW was the most popular brand in China, and it's pretty telling if they can't sell thier EVs there, a country that actually wants EVs), and their European demand for thier EV's just flew off a cliff. From my outlook Tesla is currently in lets make these things cheaper mode, while VW is in omg lets catch up to Tesla 5 years ago mode. It's only going to be maybe one model with a 700km range too (which Telsa has been offering for awhile now). Stuff like the Macan is going to end up around 500km I think. This 718EV isn't going to have crazy range. The taycan isn't going to jump significantly in range from what I've read. Plus the Macan EV is going to start at what, 80g USD? Perfect price point to buy something else is what I said to myself when I enquired about rough expected pricing on those at my dealer.
The interior design, fit and finish, and exterior styling are not enough to make up for crappy usability and a crazy price.
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Larson E. Rapp (01-01-2024)
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#580
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Pretty sure VAG understands benchmark vehicles and I’d be surprised if they didn’t meet or exceed industry standard.
Not sure what GM did in the 80s helps the technical discussion.
Not sure what GM did in the 80s helps the technical discussion.
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Your faith in a company that has screwed up at literally every juncture is, well, inspiring.
What car companies are learning is that there is no such thing as a "car company" anymore. They are all systems integrators now. Ask GM about that, who just had a major launch bollixed up by the infotainment system of all things.
Tesla is an exception -- a fundamentally-uncopyable one because it seems they have the only competent in-house EV engineers these days. They are vertically-integrated the way Ford was in the 1920s, where rocks come in one door and cars come out another. That works great, right up until it doesn't.
What car companies are learning is that there is no such thing as a "car company" anymore. They are all systems integrators now. Ask GM about that, who just had a major launch bollixed up by the infotainment system of all things.
Tesla is an exception -- a fundamentally-uncopyable one because it seems they have the only competent in-house EV engineers these days. They are vertically-integrated the way Ford was in the 1920s, where rocks come in one door and cars come out another. That works great, right up until it doesn't.
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What does dieselgate have to do with the upcoming 718 EV launch…I’m not seeing the connection there.
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Are you trolling? There is no way you shouldn't be able to connect the dots...
You today: VAG is the largest, they're teh best and will never fail!
Your dad (probably) in the 80s: GM is the largest, they're the best and will never fail!
Your ancestor somewhere 400AD: Rome will never fall!
VAG is stumbling around in the dark when it comes to EVs. They had some success with pushing units based on just how huge they are but like I siad, look up whats happening to them in China. I'll leave you some breadcrumbs there: 20+ years ago they had over 50% marketshare. They're still the largest or maybe 2nd largest car manufacturer. They can't push EVs for the life of them there and their marketshare of EV's is rapidly approaching zero and that is not an exaggeration. I believe they saw a 30% reduction in sales (or market share, i forget) in the last year. I think their marketshare is about 2% of EVs, yet 10% of the country's car sales. That is a disaster since they're trying hard to switch their fleet to EVs. Compare that to Toyota in north america for example that has a similar 2% market share and is totally not interested in the slightest with switching to EVs and thinks they're not the future.
Meanwhile Tesla in China is rocking it on building EVs people want for prices they want. China also gave Telsa a sweet heart deal they never have given a company before and let Telsa go thier own way in China, which is a clear sign China thinks Tesla is far ahead of the rest when it comes to what they do.