Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
12-20-2016, 03:56 PM
#2401
So in other words all of us CD owners are still left dangling longer to find out A) when the fix will be approved, B) what the fix is, and C) what impact it will have. Then, should we not like it, we'll probably still have a fight on our hands about an appropriate compensation (be it a bigger payout or outright buyback).
All the while the market will continue to be in turmoil.
So happy fvcking holidays to us
All the while the market will continue to be in turmoil.
So happy fvcking holidays to us
12-20-2016, 03:59 PM
#2402
And then this is in my email box waiting for me.
Yeah. "courageous" year indeed...
Yeah. "courageous" year indeed...
Originally Posted by Porsche News
Issue 12/2016
Dear Mr. XXXX,
December is a month for reflection. And here at Porsche, we would like to share some of our most memorable moments from this year with you. Once again, it was a year in which there were many highlights.
In June, the Porsche Panamera found worthy successors in its new models, and we hope that you were able to find inspiration in our slogan "Courage changes everything". The new 718 Boxster and the new 718 Cayman marked the continuation of the 718 era and, last but not least, we successfully defended our victory in Le Mans and retained our title as the World Champion in the FIA World Endurance Championship.
We would like to thank you for your support and we will do our very best to ensure that we have more exciting stories to share with you over the coming year. We will keep you updated on all of the latest news and events in our newsletter. We would like to take this opportunity to wish you a very Merry Christmas and a happy and successful New Year.
Your Porsche Team
Dear Mr. XXXX,
December is a month for reflection. And here at Porsche, we would like to share some of our most memorable moments from this year with you. Once again, it was a year in which there were many highlights.
In June, the Porsche Panamera found worthy successors in its new models, and we hope that you were able to find inspiration in our slogan "Courage changes everything". The new 718 Boxster and the new 718 Cayman marked the continuation of the 718 era and, last but not least, we successfully defended our victory in Le Mans and retained our title as the World Champion in the FIA World Endurance Championship.
We would like to thank you for your support and we will do our very best to ensure that we have more exciting stories to share with you over the coming year. We will keep you updated on all of the latest news and events in our newsletter. We would like to take this opportunity to wish you a very Merry Christmas and a happy and successful New Year.
Your Porsche Team
12-20-2016, 04:00 PM
#2403
Seems like the court and regulators got enough blood out of VW and are letting them off easy with the 3.0L issue.
What happened to the fix this summer that they had for the 3.0L? It was rejected by CARB, so now CARB is ok with a fix?
What happened to the fix this summer that they had for the 3.0L? It was rejected by CARB, so now CARB is ok with a fix?
12-20-2016, 04:04 PM
#2404
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The crappy thing is that there is no fix approved for the 2.0 cars, yet they have the buyback choice.
The 3.0 liter cars, I guess they are also saying a fix is unlikely...so they get the buyback choice.
They must have done some serious *** kissing on these cars and convinced CARB, etc. that a fix is likely.....so no buyback. But there is no fix approved yet. So we need to understand how long these morons have to get a fix approved, and under what conditions would we not be required to take a fix.
Honestly, I'm not looking to get rid of my CD. But this "well, we might be able to get a fix approved in the future" is infuriating. Basically we are in the same boat as a 2.0 owner who wants to keep their car....except we have no out clause if the fix is approved by CARB, unlike them.
12-20-2016, 04:05 PM
#2405
CARB announces partial Consent Decree for Audi, Volkswagen and Porsche 3-liter diesel vehicles
California to receive $66 million, additional zero-emission models and infrastructure
SAN FRANCISCO - California Air Resources Board (CARB) Executive Officer Richard Corey and the California Department of Justice today announced a partial consent decree for violations of the Clean Air Act caused by a “defeat device” in 3-liter diesel passenger cars sold by Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche. The model years affected are 2009 through 2016. The Partial Consent Decree was negotiated with the automakers by CARB, the U.S Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA), the California Attorney General’s Office, and the U.S. Department of Justice (U.S. DOJ).
A defeat device is an undisclosed Auxiliary Emissions Control Device (AECD) that reduces the effectiveness of the emission control system. Not disclosing the presence of such a device is a violation of California and federal vehicle certification requirements.
In this case, as in Volkswagen’s smaller 2-liter diesel vehicles, the defeat device was specifically designed to turn on certain emission control systems and strategies only when a vehicle was undergoing vehicle certification testing, and then turn them off when actually driven on the road. This resulted in additional emissions of nitrogen oxides above the California and federal certification limits.
As with the 2-liter case, it was CARB engineers who discovered some of these inconsistencies through diligent emissions testing and investigation.
"This settlement highlights the fact that cheating to get a car certified has consequences for air quality and the public’s health -- and that cheaters will be caught and held accountable,” said CARB Executive Officer Richard Corey. “Because California is able to enforce its vehicle regulations, CARB was instrumental in uncovering the cheating in the 3-liter, and before that, in the 2-liter, diesel engines. The mitigation in this settlement will now help California address its serious air quality and climate challenges with a focus on putting the very cleanest vehicles in disadvantaged communities where they are needed most.
To mitigate environmental harm from their actions, the companies must pay $225 million into a national mitigation fund. California will receive about $41 million of that money for mitigation programs in the state designed to address the additional NOx emissions released by the vehicles in question. This is in addition to $1.2 billion VW is already paying California for mitigation and zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) infrastructure as part of the 2-liter partial consent decree. There will be a public process to take input on what should be done with the money for mitigation including workshops, and public hearings.
Under the terms of the related separate California Consent Decree announced today and containing additional environmental relief for California, the companies also will be required to add a second “Green City” in California in addition to the one required under the ZEV Commitment in the previous Partial Consent Decree involving 2-liter diesel vehicles. The second Green City, which must have a population of at least 500,000 with many living primarily in disadvantaged communities, will receive concentrated investment in ZEV programs like car sharing, ZEV transit or freight services and infrastructure and public awareness efforts to support those programs.
This case affects almost 15,000 vehicles in California and about 83,000 nationally. The engines were built by Audi and used in all models manufactured by the three companies. Under the terms of the consent decree, the automakers are working on an emissions modification to bring some of these vehicles into compliance with federal and California emissions standards.
Any modification must be approved by both CARB and U.S. EPA. As with the 2-liter vehicles, there are several generations of engines utilizing different emissions control technologies. Some generations may be suitable for an emissions compliant modification, while others cannot be made emissions compliant. The automakers will offer to buy back or cancel leases on vehicles which cannot be modified. In addition, Volkswagen may propose a modification (to be approved by CARB and U.S. EPA) that reduces emissions for the remaining vehicles (though not to the levels to which they were originally certified).
The newer vehicles appear to be likely candidates for a successful emissions compliant modification. However, no modification has been approved, and if the manufacturers cannot provide one, these vehicles will become eligible for buyback or lease cancellation, as well. For more information about options for owners and those who have leases on these cars, see www.vwcourtsettlement.com
The separate California Consent Decree also requires the manufacturers to pay CARB $25 million dollars by July 1, 2017, to support efforts to make zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) available to more Californians. This money will likely be used to expand programs such as replace-and-upgrade programs for high-emitting cars in disadvantaged communities (EFMP Plus-up) and the Clean Vehicle Rebate Project (CVRP), which provide rebates and financial assistance for purchase of ZEVs.
Also under the separate California Consent Decree, the manufacturers will provide at least three new models of electric vehicles for sale in California -- including at least one SUV model -- before 2019. The companies must add a second electric SUV model by 2020 and keep these electric models on the market through at least 2025. ZEV credits generated by placement of these vehicles in California cannot be sold on the ZEV credit market.
The consent decrees that document the settlement are subject to approval by the court following a public comment period on the national version.
What vehicles are affected
YEAR MODELS
2009 VW Touareg, Audi Q7
2010 VW Touareg, Audi Q7
2011 VW Touareg, Audi Q7
2012 VW Touareg, Audi Q7
2013 VW Touareg, Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne Diesel
2014 VW Touareg, Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne Diesel
2014 Audi A6, A7, A8, A8L, Q5
2015 Audi Q7, Audi A6, A7, A8, A8L, Q5
2015 VW Touareg, Porsche Cayenne Diesel
2016 VW Touareg, Porsche Cayenne Diesel, Audi A6, A7, A8, A8L, Q5
You can view the national Partial Consent Decree here: https://www.epa.gov/vw/announcements...gen-violations
The California-specific version is here: https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_inf...threeliter.pdf
California to receive $66 million, additional zero-emission models and infrastructure
SAN FRANCISCO - California Air Resources Board (CARB) Executive Officer Richard Corey and the California Department of Justice today announced a partial consent decree for violations of the Clean Air Act caused by a “defeat device” in 3-liter diesel passenger cars sold by Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche. The model years affected are 2009 through 2016. The Partial Consent Decree was negotiated with the automakers by CARB, the U.S Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA), the California Attorney General’s Office, and the U.S. Department of Justice (U.S. DOJ).
A defeat device is an undisclosed Auxiliary Emissions Control Device (AECD) that reduces the effectiveness of the emission control system. Not disclosing the presence of such a device is a violation of California and federal vehicle certification requirements.
In this case, as in Volkswagen’s smaller 2-liter diesel vehicles, the defeat device was specifically designed to turn on certain emission control systems and strategies only when a vehicle was undergoing vehicle certification testing, and then turn them off when actually driven on the road. This resulted in additional emissions of nitrogen oxides above the California and federal certification limits.
As with the 2-liter case, it was CARB engineers who discovered some of these inconsistencies through diligent emissions testing and investigation.
"This settlement highlights the fact that cheating to get a car certified has consequences for air quality and the public’s health -- and that cheaters will be caught and held accountable,” said CARB Executive Officer Richard Corey. “Because California is able to enforce its vehicle regulations, CARB was instrumental in uncovering the cheating in the 3-liter, and before that, in the 2-liter, diesel engines. The mitigation in this settlement will now help California address its serious air quality and climate challenges with a focus on putting the very cleanest vehicles in disadvantaged communities where they are needed most.
To mitigate environmental harm from their actions, the companies must pay $225 million into a national mitigation fund. California will receive about $41 million of that money for mitigation programs in the state designed to address the additional NOx emissions released by the vehicles in question. This is in addition to $1.2 billion VW is already paying California for mitigation and zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) infrastructure as part of the 2-liter partial consent decree. There will be a public process to take input on what should be done with the money for mitigation including workshops, and public hearings.
Under the terms of the related separate California Consent Decree announced today and containing additional environmental relief for California, the companies also will be required to add a second “Green City” in California in addition to the one required under the ZEV Commitment in the previous Partial Consent Decree involving 2-liter diesel vehicles. The second Green City, which must have a population of at least 500,000 with many living primarily in disadvantaged communities, will receive concentrated investment in ZEV programs like car sharing, ZEV transit or freight services and infrastructure and public awareness efforts to support those programs.
This case affects almost 15,000 vehicles in California and about 83,000 nationally. The engines were built by Audi and used in all models manufactured by the three companies. Under the terms of the consent decree, the automakers are working on an emissions modification to bring some of these vehicles into compliance with federal and California emissions standards.
Any modification must be approved by both CARB and U.S. EPA. As with the 2-liter vehicles, there are several generations of engines utilizing different emissions control technologies. Some generations may be suitable for an emissions compliant modification, while others cannot be made emissions compliant. The automakers will offer to buy back or cancel leases on vehicles which cannot be modified. In addition, Volkswagen may propose a modification (to be approved by CARB and U.S. EPA) that reduces emissions for the remaining vehicles (though not to the levels to which they were originally certified).
The newer vehicles appear to be likely candidates for a successful emissions compliant modification. However, no modification has been approved, and if the manufacturers cannot provide one, these vehicles will become eligible for buyback or lease cancellation, as well. For more information about options for owners and those who have leases on these cars, see www.vwcourtsettlement.com
The separate California Consent Decree also requires the manufacturers to pay CARB $25 million dollars by July 1, 2017, to support efforts to make zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) available to more Californians. This money will likely be used to expand programs such as replace-and-upgrade programs for high-emitting cars in disadvantaged communities (EFMP Plus-up) and the Clean Vehicle Rebate Project (CVRP), which provide rebates and financial assistance for purchase of ZEVs.
Also under the separate California Consent Decree, the manufacturers will provide at least three new models of electric vehicles for sale in California -- including at least one SUV model -- before 2019. The companies must add a second electric SUV model by 2020 and keep these electric models on the market through at least 2025. ZEV credits generated by placement of these vehicles in California cannot be sold on the ZEV credit market.
The consent decrees that document the settlement are subject to approval by the court following a public comment period on the national version.
What vehicles are affected
YEAR MODELS
2009 VW Touareg, Audi Q7
2010 VW Touareg, Audi Q7
2011 VW Touareg, Audi Q7
2012 VW Touareg, Audi Q7
2013 VW Touareg, Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne Diesel
2014 VW Touareg, Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne Diesel
2014 Audi A6, A7, A8, A8L, Q5
2015 Audi Q7, Audi A6, A7, A8, A8L, Q5
2015 VW Touareg, Porsche Cayenne Diesel
2016 VW Touareg, Porsche Cayenne Diesel, Audi A6, A7, A8, A8L, Q5
You can view the national Partial Consent Decree here: https://www.epa.gov/vw/announcements...gen-violations
The California-specific version is here: https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_inf...threeliter.pdf
12-20-2016, 04:08 PM
#2406
Rennlist Member
Basically the regulators were using us as pawns.
Maybe the only option is to mass opt out of the class and start a new class. It looks like this class members (the lawyers, EPA and CARB) do not actually represent us
12-20-2016, 04:19 PM
#2407
It appears all the discussion is about how much more we (fill the govt coffers) can get.... then publicly announce the victory.
What a waste of time, they haven't resolved or addressed anything regarding the 3.0L.
FIX - Good luck with that one! I think we are about to get screwed!
What a waste of time, they haven't resolved or addressed anything regarding the 3.0L.
FIX - Good luck with that one! I think we are about to get screwed!
12-20-2016, 04:25 PM
#2408
Another one of my beliefs buried in the bowels of this thread is that there would be a lot of noise, a lot of money paid to the government, but ultimately no fix ever delivered.
Today's results seem to lend some credence that this might be how it plays out. They will settle it like this and the fix will just never materialize.
While I (and I think most) would be happy to have our cars left as is, it also means that the market will stay unstable due to people having the belief that these are "dirty" and still waiting on a fix.
Today's results seem to lend some credence that this might be how it plays out. They will settle it like this and the fix will just never materialize.
While I (and I think most) would be happy to have our cars left as is, it also means that the market will stay unstable due to people having the belief that these are "dirty" and still waiting on a fix.
12-20-2016, 04:32 PM
#2409
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Another one of my beliefs buried in the bowels of this thread is that there would be a lot of noise, a lot of money paid to the government, but ultimately no fix ever delivered.
Today's results seem to lend some credence that this might be how it plays out. They will settle it like this and the fix will just never materialize.
While I (and I think most) would be happy to have our cars left as is, it also means that the market will stay unstable due to people having the belief that these are "dirty" and still waiting on a fix.
Today's results seem to lend some credence that this might be how it plays out. They will settle it like this and the fix will just never materialize.
While I (and I think most) would be happy to have our cars left as is, it also means that the market will stay unstable due to people having the belief that these are "dirty" and still waiting on a fix.
The judge's rehtoric that he wants to have the dirty cars off the road as soon as possible does not jibe with the 2.0 consent decree's leaving the owners a choice to get a fix...or then opt out once the fix is found to be unsatisfactory. Basically just gives VW time to come up with a solution (which, if you read the CD would be QUITE a detailed approval).
So now, for us, we get no option for an immediate buyback...but a chance for a buyback if a fix is never approved? I would suspect that there would have to again be a timeline for a fix approval or enact the buyback as part of the Consent Decree.
Again, I don't really want a buyback. I don't want my car changed at all or, if it's changed, to drive like the 2016 that I drove with the updated software. But in the absence of details, this is seriously infuriating. And I suspect even with the details, it'll still be infuriating. Guess that they are still arguing over how much $$ we get. WHich they probably don't care about since they got their quarter mil....
12-20-2016, 04:36 PM
#2410
Here is my 2 cents.
I have been a licensed Marine Engineer - hold Chief's Engineer's Diesel License and spent the last 25 years sailing on mostly diesel powered container ships, the last 10 years have been sailing C/E. We are highly regulated to say the least. I have worked with CARB and their regulations as my ship sails into the port of Long Beach.
No way they can change the emission of the 3.0L engines without those changes impacting the vehicles in some other way. I have done this throughout my career, especially when dealing with CARB - they won't allow us to change TC, Air coolers, Inj pumps, Inj Nozzles, or alter the governor or another control device that could effect emissions by using non certified (OEM) parts that weren't part of the original design that allowed it to be complaint. If they aren't complaint now, I highly doubt they will be in the future with a 'simple fix'.
Something doesn't sound right with these reports/settlements. How do you have a settlement without it being defined?
I have been a licensed Marine Engineer - hold Chief's Engineer's Diesel License and spent the last 25 years sailing on mostly diesel powered container ships, the last 10 years have been sailing C/E. We are highly regulated to say the least. I have worked with CARB and their regulations as my ship sails into the port of Long Beach.
No way they can change the emission of the 3.0L engines without those changes impacting the vehicles in some other way. I have done this throughout my career, especially when dealing with CARB - they won't allow us to change TC, Air coolers, Inj pumps, Inj Nozzles, or alter the governor or another control device that could effect emissions by using non certified (OEM) parts that weren't part of the original design that allowed it to be complaint. If they aren't complaint now, I highly doubt they will be in the future with a 'simple fix'.
Something doesn't sound right with these reports/settlements. How do you have a settlement without it being defined?
12-20-2016, 04:51 PM
#2411
Rennlist Member
CARB announces partial Consent Decree for Audi, Volkswagen and Porsche 3-liter diesel vehicles
Horn tooting...
As with the 2-liter case, it was CARB engineers who discovered some of these inconsistencies through diligent emissions testing and investigation.
"This settlement highlights the fact that cheating to get a car certified has consequences for air quality and the public’s health -- and that cheaters will be caught and held accountable,” said CARB Executive Officer Richard Corey. “Because California is able to enforce its vehicle regulations, CARB was instrumental in uncovering the cheating in the 3-liter, and before that, in the 2-liter, diesel engines. The mitigation in this settlement will now help California address its serious air quality and climate challenges with a focus on putting the very cleanest vehicles in disadvantaged communities where they are needed most.
More self aggrandizing horn tooting...
Horn tooting...
As with the 2-liter case, it was CARB engineers who discovered some of these inconsistencies through diligent emissions testing and investigation.
"This settlement highlights the fact that cheating to get a car certified has consequences for air quality and the public’s health -- and that cheaters will be caught and held accountable,” said CARB Executive Officer Richard Corey. “Because California is able to enforce its vehicle regulations, CARB was instrumental in uncovering the cheating in the 3-liter, and before that, in the 2-liter, diesel engines. The mitigation in this settlement will now help California address its serious air quality and climate challenges with a focus on putting the very cleanest vehicles in disadvantaged communities where they are needed most.
More self aggrandizing horn tooting...
Didn't a bunch of researchers at a college find and break this scandal?
And the supposed fix still doesn't say how it will impact performance and mpg.
I wish I was calling the shots at VW... I'd get this behind me and then just pull out of CA altogether. No ZEVs, no charging stations, no future vehicles for them at all. OK, OK, I know... wishful thinking. Too much profit there, even with all this crap.
12-20-2016, 05:00 PM
#2412
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Wow. Yep, the CARB got theirs. And that press release certainly is a "look at us, look at us" chest thumping release to glorify how much they're doing for CA.
Didn't a bunch of researchers at a college find and break this scandal?
And the supposed fix still doesn't say how it will impact performance and mpg.
I wish I was calling the shots at VW... I'd get this behind me and then just pull out of CA altogether. No ZEVs, no charging stations, no future vehicles for them at all. OK, OK, I know... wishful thinking. Too much profit there, even with all this crap.
Didn't a bunch of researchers at a college find and break this scandal?
And the supposed fix still doesn't say how it will impact performance and mpg.
I wish I was calling the shots at VW... I'd get this behind me and then just pull out of CA altogether. No ZEVs, no charging stations, no future vehicles for them at all. OK, OK, I know... wishful thinking. Too much profit there, even with all this crap.
Yes, researchers at WVU were wondering how VW could meet regs without some equipment others needed to meet regs (BMW and Merc) so they decided to run some tests....
The supposed fix doesn't say anything because there is no fix even proposed yet. VW has convinced CARB that there is a high likelyhood that the Gen II 3 liter cars COULD be fixed. That's the only difference between the Gen I 3 liter cars and all three Gens of the 2 liter cars. Because right now, there's no fix approved for those either.
12-20-2016, 05:07 PM
#2413
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Here is my 2 cents.
I have been a licensed Marine Engineer - hold Chief's Engineer's Diesel License and spent the last 25 years sailing on mostly diesel powered container ships, the last 10 years have been sailing C/E. We are highly regulated to say the least. I have worked with CARB and their regulations as my ship sails into the port of Long Beach.
No way they can change the emission of the 3.0L engines without those changes impacting the vehicles in some other way. I have done this throughout my career, especially when dealing with CARB - they won't allow us to change TC, Air coolers, Inj pumps, Inj Nozzles, or alter the governor or another control device that could effect emissions by using non certified (OEM) parts that weren't part of the original design that allowed it to be complaint. If they aren't complaint now, I highly doubt they will be in the future with a 'simple fix'.
Something doesn't sound right with these reports/settlements. How do you have a settlement without it being defined?
I have been a licensed Marine Engineer - hold Chief's Engineer's Diesel License and spent the last 25 years sailing on mostly diesel powered container ships, the last 10 years have been sailing C/E. We are highly regulated to say the least. I have worked with CARB and their regulations as my ship sails into the port of Long Beach.
No way they can change the emission of the 3.0L engines without those changes impacting the vehicles in some other way. I have done this throughout my career, especially when dealing with CARB - they won't allow us to change TC, Air coolers, Inj pumps, Inj Nozzles, or alter the governor or another control device that could effect emissions by using non certified (OEM) parts that weren't part of the original design that allowed it to be complaint. If they aren't complaint now, I highly doubt they will be in the future with a 'simple fix'.
Something doesn't sound right with these reports/settlements. How do you have a settlement without it being defined?
First, they have to hammer out whatever final details they're discussing.
Then, they need to actually put together the consent decree. Then have a public comment period on it. Then formally adopt the consent decree. If you notice in the listing of documents in this link: http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl that the initial preliminary settlement was announced in July 2016, but the actual Consent Decree (containing all of the gory technical details) wasn't finalized until October 2016, including after a public comment period.
Do we have anyone here in SF willing go be a public commentor and appear in court when the time comes? That would be pretty awesome.
Regarding the details, I would ask that you look at Appendix C of the Consent Decree and see what you think. Would be interested in your opinion as an engineer specializing in this type of info. All of the info needed to meet a fix is in there. Including VW's requirements for a timeframe for submitting a fix, and CARB's timeframe for responding to a fix.
This whole thing is making less sense...
