Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
12-20-2016, 07:59 PM
#2446
RL Community Team
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Here I was thinking there were teams of engineers with diesel engines on test benches pouring over lines of code, measuing performance and developing that fix in time to meet Judge Breyers deadline. Only to find out that it's years away and nothing in the interim will be offered. I can only think that a swindle has taken place. Is there any hope for details on Thursday?
What a fiasco.
12-20-2016, 09:31 PM
#2447
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Here is my 2 cents.
I have been a licensed Marine Engineer - hold Chief's Engineer's Diesel License and spent the last 25 years sailing on mostly diesel powered container ships, the last 10 years have been sailing C/E. We are highly regulated to say the least. I have worked with CARB and their regulations as my ship sails into the port of Long Beach.
No way they can change the emission of the 3.0L engines without those changes impacting the vehicles in some other way. I have done this throughout my career, especially when dealing with CARB - they won't allow us to change TC, Air coolers, Inj pumps, Inj Nozzles, or alter the governor or another control device that could effect emissions by using non certified (OEM) parts that weren't part of the original design that allowed it to be complaint. If they aren't complaint now, I highly doubt they will be in the future with a 'simple fix'.
Something doesn't sound right with these reports/settlements. How do you have a settlement without it being defined?
I have been a licensed Marine Engineer - hold Chief's Engineer's Diesel License and spent the last 25 years sailing on mostly diesel powered container ships, the last 10 years have been sailing C/E. We are highly regulated to say the least. I have worked with CARB and their regulations as my ship sails into the port of Long Beach.
No way they can change the emission of the 3.0L engines without those changes impacting the vehicles in some other way. I have done this throughout my career, especially when dealing with CARB - they won't allow us to change TC, Air coolers, Inj pumps, Inj Nozzles, or alter the governor or another control device that could effect emissions by using non certified (OEM) parts that weren't part of the original design that allowed it to be complaint. If they aren't complaint now, I highly doubt they will be in the future with a 'simple fix'.
Something doesn't sound right with these reports/settlements. How do you have a settlement without it being defined?
This is delay tactics, pure and simple.
12-20-2016, 10:15 PM
#2448
12-20-2016, 10:44 PM
#2449
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Thankfully, my kids are educated, I can afford Porsches and Audis and recommend many cars to family and friends. Maybe they aren't interested in my business anymore either. In the end, it's just one car to me. Lets not forget, no one really needs a Porsche.
12-20-2016, 11:15 PM
#2450
Rennlist Member
http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diese...n=awdailydrive
Ain't this interesting. I mean...how do they get a buy back option but no-one else does with an affected 3.0L diesel? Crazy huh?
12-20-2016, 11:17 PM
#2451
RL Community Team
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Yeah...well Canada just got their solution!
http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diese...n=awdailydrive
Ain't this interesting. I mean...how do they get a buy back option but no-one else does with an affected 3.0L diesel? Crazy huh?
http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diese...n=awdailydrive
Ain't this interesting. I mean...how do they get a buy back option but no-one else does with an affected 3.0L diesel? Crazy huh?
12-20-2016, 11:25 PM
#2452
Rennlist Member
So what will happen to 3.0L cars then? Looks like earlier ones have more options (buy back + fix + compensation) while Gen 2 3.0L cars (mostly Audi and Porsche) will get fix only plus compensation.
Hmm....something tells me fix will result in loss of performance. From what a few engineer friends tell me...no way to do it without affecting performance from an engineering standpoint.
Hmm....something tells me fix will result in loss of performance. From what a few engineer friends tell me...no way to do it without affecting performance from an engineering standpoint.
12-20-2016, 11:47 PM
#2453
Rennlist Member
So what will happen to 3.0L cars then? Looks like earlier ones have more options (buy back + fix + compensation) while Gen 2 3.0L cars (mostly Audi and Porsche) will get fix only plus compensation.
Hmm....something tells me fix will result in loss of performance. From what a few engineer friends tell me...no way to do it without affecting performance from an engineering standpoint.
Hmm....something tells me fix will result in loss of performance. From what a few engineer friends tell me...no way to do it without affecting performance from an engineering standpoint.
The second generation cars consist of all the remaining
3-liter diesel cars. This second generation includes all three
car makers: VW, Audi and Porsche. There are approximately
60,000 Generation II cars.
It is my understanding that unlike the Generation I
vehicles, Volkswagen believes it can make the Generation II
vehicles fully emissions compliant. If Volkswagen can, then it
will not be required to buy them back. If Volkswagen cannot,
then consumers with Generation II vehicles will have options
like those available to the Generation I consumers, including
the option to have Volkswagen buy back their vehicle; and
subject to governmental approval after further testing, the
option to have the consumer's vehicle modified in accordance
with the agreement; and for a leased car, the option to cancel
the lease and return the car to Volkswagen.
With the Gen II, it sounds like the fix is no where near ready. Will someone give them a time limit? And, there is no provision for ensuring owners are happy with the solution. This is bad.
12-21-2016, 12:01 AM
#2454
RL Community Team
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This is from the court transcript:
The second generation cars consist of all the remaining
3-liter diesel cars. This second generation includes all three
car makers: VW, Audi and Porsche. There are approximately
60,000 Generation II cars.
It is my understanding that unlike the Generation I
vehicles, Volkswagen believes it can make the Generation II
vehicles fully emissions compliant. If Volkswagen can, then it
will not be required to buy them back. If Volkswagen cannot,
then consumers with Generation II vehicles will have options
like those available to the Generation I consumers, including
the option to have Volkswagen buy back their vehicle; and
subject to governmental approval after further testing, the
option to have the consumer's vehicle modified in accordance
with the agreement; and for a leased car, the option to cancel
the lease and return the car to Volkswagen.
With the Gen II, it sounds like the fix is no where near ready. Will someone give them a time limit? And, there is no provision for ensuring owners are happy with the solution. This is bad.
The second generation cars consist of all the remaining
3-liter diesel cars. This second generation includes all three
car makers: VW, Audi and Porsche. There are approximately
60,000 Generation II cars.
It is my understanding that unlike the Generation I
vehicles, Volkswagen believes it can make the Generation II
vehicles fully emissions compliant. If Volkswagen can, then it
will not be required to buy them back. If Volkswagen cannot,
then consumers with Generation II vehicles will have options
like those available to the Generation I consumers, including
the option to have Volkswagen buy back their vehicle; and
subject to governmental approval after further testing, the
option to have the consumer's vehicle modified in accordance
with the agreement; and for a leased car, the option to cancel
the lease and return the car to Volkswagen.
With the Gen II, it sounds like the fix is no where near ready. Will someone give them a time limit? And, there is no provision for ensuring owners are happy with the solution. This is bad.
I also do not like the lack of an out clause of the fix sucks. Not one bit.
Let's not forget we are missing a metric sh*t ton of data here. No details on the compensation, no time frames, no buyout mechanics, nothing. First, the whole draft deal must be detailed. Then there will be a public comment period. Finally the actual,consent decree will be drafted and then adopted.
12-21-2016, 12:09 AM
#2455
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Deadline for Fix Approval
I think the deadline for fix approval will be May 2017. Here's why:
2.0L: June2019 deadline for 85% recall
1st gen 3.0L: November2019 deadline for 85% recall
2nd gen 3.0L: May2020 deadline for 85% recall
Notice that whenever buyback is involved, the 85% recall deadline is 3 years from settlement date. In order to give VW 3 years to achieve 85% buyback, the deadline for fix approval needs to be May2017.
2.0L: June2019 deadline for 85% recall
1st gen 3.0L: November2019 deadline for 85% recall
2nd gen 3.0L: May2020 deadline for 85% recall
Notice that whenever buyback is involved, the 85% recall deadline is 3 years from settlement date. In order to give VW 3 years to achieve 85% buyback, the deadline for fix approval needs to be May2017.
12-21-2016, 12:12 AM
#2456
Official Wednesday AM Red Bull F1 test driver
Rennlist Member
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We have a '14 Q5 TDI- nothing on the Audi website yet that explains anything... I'll continue to drive the car and enjoy the torque and continue to wonder what the h*ll Audi is going to do. Still have to figure out how to use the dealership only $500 card I have to use before the end of January. Really don't need that many Audi T-shirts or hats...
12-21-2016, 01:06 AM
#2457
I didn't know that there was a use/lose cut off. That really sucks on top of it already sucking that you have to give that money back to them...
12-21-2016, 10:13 AM
#2458
After reading and review a lot of the court docs and other info I found. It appears that the EPA/CARB have their victory and since the 3.0L are as bad as the 2.0L, they are letting off the pressure on VW. Lots of time and effort obviously went into the agreements with VW on setting up funds and trust for where the fines are going to go.
As far as a fix goes, let's face it, if these engines are that easy to do a simple software flash and minor mods to bring them close to compliance, why didn't they just do this in the first place. The put a lot of effort into cheating on emmissions (years in the making), time that could have been spent on engineering compliant diesel engines.
ANSWER: Because it isn't that easy and I doubt they will be able to achieve compliance without impacting the performance of the vehicle in some way.
They have giving EPA/CARB and the courts a win with the 2.0L and the dealers are getting compensated too. That leaves us to deal with, which makes sense that VW is trying everything to avoid any payouts to us as long as they can. Porsche clearly doesn't care about customer relations in this case, only when it hurts the bottom line with reduced sales numbers will they take notice. Until they have to really compete in the market place, they can keep on selling overpriced cars and charge ridiculous amounts for routine service when they have a product that is in demand.
As far as a fix goes, let's face it, if these engines are that easy to do a simple software flash and minor mods to bring them close to compliance, why didn't they just do this in the first place. The put a lot of effort into cheating on emmissions (years in the making), time that could have been spent on engineering compliant diesel engines.
ANSWER: Because it isn't that easy and I doubt they will be able to achieve compliance without impacting the performance of the vehicle in some way.
They have giving EPA/CARB and the courts a win with the 2.0L and the dealers are getting compensated too. That leaves us to deal with, which makes sense that VW is trying everything to avoid any payouts to us as long as they can. Porsche clearly doesn't care about customer relations in this case, only when it hurts the bottom line with reduced sales numbers will they take notice. Until they have to really compete in the market place, they can keep on selling overpriced cars and charge ridiculous amounts for routine service when they have a product that is in demand.
12-21-2016, 10:45 AM
#2459
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But but but.. We were told by an upstanding and knowledgable poster in this very thread how VW/Audi owners got a better deal than Porsche owners with our measly warranty extension...
I didn't know that there was a use/lose cut off. That really sucks on top of it already sucking that you have to give that money back to them...
I didn't know that there was a use/lose cut off. That really sucks on top of it already sucking that you have to give that money back to them...
For those CD owners that received a warranty extension. I'm still trying to straighten mine out. PCNA now needs me to send them a copy of my bill of sale.
12-21-2016, 10:58 AM
#2460
Your's is definitely a crappy case. While annoying, it sounds like they are working with you to get it resolved. Hopefully it gets straightened out quickly and without too much hassle.