Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
12-18-2016, 03:21 PM
#2356
Rennlist Member
And, as has been noted, a buyback wouldn't be wholesale. If that were the case, you'd be rightfully PO'd, too.
Doesn't make me any happier, but the bottom line is that if they fix my car with no impact to performance or efficiency (which I am very doubtful about), cover any depreciation and some compensation, then that compensation amount is, really "found money". Plus we have an extra two years on the warranty.
I think we have to realize and accept that a buyback isn't going to be part of this settlement.
1. I took SignDoc's term of "wholesale" as figurative or a general buyback, not literal with the buyback pricing.
2. It is not realistic to change a few lines of code to change the combustion physics of a diesel engine, cleaning the exhaust and not impacting fuel consumption and power output. If that were the case, they would have kept working at it after the first cheat devices. Maybe they would have sent out 1 or 2 model years with the cheat devices, then released a fully compliant engine. It only makes sense (at least to me) is that a fully compliant TDI runs like a turd (trust me, I hope I'm wrong).
We should expect any "fixed" engines to run differently, and not to our advantage. We'll likely use more DEF, increased duty cycle on the emission components, more fuel use and have less power. We can reasonably argue that if that configuration was in place during our test drives, we would NOT have selected to purchase the Diesel. We should demand proof that the mods don't affect performance or durability.
So, unless the V-6 only requires a very slight adjustment to meet a corner of the regulations- expect your CD to run differently. For that reason, we should have a right to refuse the fix and have a buyback as an option.
12-18-2016, 04:43 PM
#2358
Instructor
A couple of comments:
1. I took SignDoc's term of "wholesale" as figurative or a general buyback, not literal with the buyback pricing.
2. It is not realistic to change a few lines of code to change the combustion physics of a diesel engine, cleaning the exhaust and not impacting fuel consumption and power output. If that were the case, they would have kept working at it after the first cheat devices. Maybe they would have sent out 1 or 2 model years with the cheat devices, then released a fully compliant engine. It only makes sense (at least to me) is that a fully compliant TDI runs like a turd (trust me, I hope I'm wrong).
<snip>
So, unless the V-6 only requires a very slight adjustment to meet a corner of the regulations- expect your CD to run differently. For that reason, we should have a right to refuse the fix and have a buyback as an option.
1. I took SignDoc's term of "wholesale" as figurative or a general buyback, not literal with the buyback pricing.
2. It is not realistic to change a few lines of code to change the combustion physics of a diesel engine, cleaning the exhaust and not impacting fuel consumption and power output. If that were the case, they would have kept working at it after the first cheat devices. Maybe they would have sent out 1 or 2 model years with the cheat devices, then released a fully compliant engine. It only makes sense (at least to me) is that a fully compliant TDI runs like a turd (trust me, I hope I'm wrong).
<snip>
So, unless the V-6 only requires a very slight adjustment to meet a corner of the regulations- expect your CD to run differently. For that reason, we should have a right to refuse the fix and have a buyback as an option.
But, don't forget that these engines don't exceed any written emission standards - the only violation here is that VW didn't certify their in-house test methods properly. Technically, we may already be driving "fully compliant" diesels.
So, as far as meeting some Standard - that's yet to be "negotiated," and to me, defining a Standard is a big sticking point in those negotiations.
Also of course, are mitigating "damage to the environment," and compensation to owners (if there is determination that we need compensation).
Having said that, when it gets down to the nitty gritty, the Regulators are unlikely to accept any documentation that VW SHOULD have provided, eliminating their "protect the engine" or other time-outs.
Based on reports that the engines emitted less when cool, it leads me to think they will need to introduce more EGR, to reduce combustion temperatures. That will reduce performance and mileage, as well as increasing wear on the engine. Please say it isn't so.....
12-18-2016, 06:05 PM
#2359
Rennlist Member
I agree with your interpretation of "wholesale," I took it as meaning a "wholesale lot."
But, don't forget that these engines don't exceed any written emission standards - the only violation here is that VW didn't certify their in-house test methods properly. Technically, we may already be driving "fully compliant" diesels.
So, as far as meeting some Standard - that's yet to be "negotiated," and to me, defining a Standard is a big sticking point in those negotiations.
Also of course, are mitigating "damage to the environment," and compensation to owners (if there is determination that we need compensation).
Having said that, when it gets down to the nitty gritty, the Regulators are unlikely to accept any documentation that VW SHOULD have provided, eliminating their "protect the engine" or other time-outs.
Based on reports that the engines emitted less when cool, it leads me to think they will need to introduce more EGR, to reduce combustion temperatures. That will reduce performance and mileage, as well as increasing wear on the engine. Please say it isn't so.....
But, don't forget that these engines don't exceed any written emission standards - the only violation here is that VW didn't certify their in-house test methods properly. Technically, we may already be driving "fully compliant" diesels.
So, as far as meeting some Standard - that's yet to be "negotiated," and to me, defining a Standard is a big sticking point in those negotiations.
Also of course, are mitigating "damage to the environment," and compensation to owners (if there is determination that we need compensation).
Having said that, when it gets down to the nitty gritty, the Regulators are unlikely to accept any documentation that VW SHOULD have provided, eliminating their "protect the engine" or other time-outs.
Based on reports that the engines emitted less when cool, it leads me to think they will need to introduce more EGR, to reduce combustion temperatures. That will reduce performance and mileage, as well as increasing wear on the engine. Please say it isn't so.....
12-18-2016, 11:36 PM
#2360
Rennlist Member
A couple of comments:
1. I took SignDoc's term of "wholesale" as figurative or a general buyback, not literal with the buyback pricing.
2. It is not realistic to change a few lines of code to change the combustion physics of a diesel engine, cleaning the exhaust and not impacting fuel consumption and power output. If that were the case, they would have kept working at it after the first cheat devices. Maybe they would have sent out 1 or 2 model years with the cheat devices, then released a fully compliant engine. It only makes sense (at least to me) is that a fully compliant TDI runs like a turd (trust me, I hope I'm wrong).
We should expect any "fixed" engines to run differently, and not to our advantage. We'll likely use more DEF, increased duty cycle on the emission components, more fuel use and have less power. We can reasonably argue that if that configuration was in place during our test drives, we would NOT have selected to purchase the Diesel. We should demand proof that the mods don't affect performance or durability.
So, unless the V-6 only requires a very slight adjustment to meet a corner of the regulations- expect your CD to run differently. For that reason, we should have a right to refuse the fix and have a buyback as an option.
1. I took SignDoc's term of "wholesale" as figurative or a general buyback, not literal with the buyback pricing.
2. It is not realistic to change a few lines of code to change the combustion physics of a diesel engine, cleaning the exhaust and not impacting fuel consumption and power output. If that were the case, they would have kept working at it after the first cheat devices. Maybe they would have sent out 1 or 2 model years with the cheat devices, then released a fully compliant engine. It only makes sense (at least to me) is that a fully compliant TDI runs like a turd (trust me, I hope I'm wrong).
We should expect any "fixed" engines to run differently, and not to our advantage. We'll likely use more DEF, increased duty cycle on the emission components, more fuel use and have less power. We can reasonably argue that if that configuration was in place during our test drives, we would NOT have selected to purchase the Diesel. We should demand proof that the mods don't affect performance or durability.
So, unless the V-6 only requires a very slight adjustment to meet a corner of the regulations- expect your CD to run differently. For that reason, we should have a right to refuse the fix and have a buyback as an option.
12-19-2016, 11:23 AM
#2362
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by visitador
Is that $1Billion for us?
http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswag...sts-1482114058
http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswag...sts-1482114058
No new news in this article. Just rehash of the current speculation / rumors:
- Buyback on the 20k older 3 liter cars
- Fix only on the newer cars
- Compensation for owners of both sets of vehicles.
Nothing new. We shall see today.
12-19-2016, 12:42 PM
#2365
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Looks like our Canadian friends have a deal on their Cayennes
The deal allows owners to sell their vehicles back to Volkswagen Canada Inc., trade them in for new vehicles or have them repaired.
Canadian owners of affected Volkswagen vehicles, which also include cars and crossovers produced by the auto maker’s luxury Audi and Porsche brands, have been clamouring for the federal government to take action–especially after Volkswagen Canada said in April that actions taken by its U.S. counterpart would be mirrored in Canada.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com//repo...click=sf_globe
The deal allows owners to sell their vehicles back to Volkswagen Canada Inc., trade them in for new vehicles or have them repaired.
Canadian owners of affected Volkswagen vehicles, which also include cars and crossovers produced by the auto maker’s luxury Audi and Porsche brands, have been clamouring for the federal government to take action–especially after Volkswagen Canada said in April that actions taken by its U.S. counterpart would be mirrored in Canada.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com//repo...click=sf_globe
12-19-2016, 12:43 PM
#2366
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Re: CPO and Warranty extension for Diesel
So, I went to dealer today and have attached a screenshot on the duration of my CD's warranty:
New Vehicle Warranty- Original 4 years (2014-2018)
Porsche Approved Warranty- 2 More Years (2018-2020)
Porsche Approved Warranty Extension- (2020-2022)
When Porsche announced/sent letter that they were offering the two additional years for diesel owners, I contacted PCNA directly to see what arrangement would be made for those that already purchased the two years warranty prior to the diesel issue. I argued that I had already pre-paid for something that Porsche was now offering for no charge. At that time the customer service folks in Atlanta told me that I would get additional warranty extension (+two more years) to take me out for a total of 8 years as shown above. They also told me it was up to 125,000 miles.
I have not received any letter from PCNA on this additional 2 years extension, but suspect that this is being handled only when the customer calls PCNA directly. I know that Porsche never initiated contact with me in regards how to reconcile that the fact that I had already paid for the warranty coverage that they (Porsche) was now offering for free to all CD owners.
Screenshot Porsche CD.pdf
New Vehicle Warranty- Original 4 years (2014-2018)
Porsche Approved Warranty- 2 More Years (2018-2020)
Porsche Approved Warranty Extension- (2020-2022)
When Porsche announced/sent letter that they were offering the two additional years for diesel owners, I contacted PCNA directly to see what arrangement would be made for those that already purchased the two years warranty prior to the diesel issue. I argued that I had already pre-paid for something that Porsche was now offering for no charge. At that time the customer service folks in Atlanta told me that I would get additional warranty extension (+two more years) to take me out for a total of 8 years as shown above. They also told me it was up to 125,000 miles.
I have not received any letter from PCNA on this additional 2 years extension, but suspect that this is being handled only when the customer calls PCNA directly. I know that Porsche never initiated contact with me in regards how to reconcile that the fact that I had already paid for the warranty coverage that they (Porsche) was now offering for free to all CD owners.
Screenshot Porsche CD.pdf
12-19-2016, 12:56 PM
#2368
12-19-2016, 01:15 PM
#2370
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Funny you mention this, I was recalling you saying this way back just this morning. Looks like you were right. I just don't know why they have this buttoned up in Canada based on the 2.0L model and ours are still unresolved. I don't think this Judge is helping with this, it's almost comical now.