Prices Keep Drifting Up
#6946
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@NYoutftr here is another one for you to watch. 40 Jahre with proper sounding mods.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...nniversary-59/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...nniversary-59/
watching now
#6947
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I’m simply quoting Prueninger about not being able to “break” the Mezger. And I don’t doubt they were rebuilt between races, which is typical. Tech labor for Porsche is relatively free, after all![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
I do love your enthusiasm for 996, and your knowledge and detail of Porsche History is at times astonishing !!
But just to bring some things back to Earth and since this is an economic type thread, I will say that the "Mezger" used in competition gets rebuilds at 50 hours use at a cost of $35k at each 50 hour rebuild.interval, and the gear box as well at a cost of $10k . Used at high level DE events, rebuilds at 100 hours are common.( yea, still cost $35k)
As far as failures, yes they have them also, The 997 Turbo Mezger is known for the cams slipping, I also have seen GT3 slip the timing ring on dual mass flywheel,, and also aluminum bolts breaking on the vario cam actuators, broken timing chains, ect. along with other issues that can be catastrophic.
That said these cars are fewer in numbers and the owners are not whinners, so the issues are not as widely known.
But anyway, carry on !!
But just to bring some things back to Earth and since this is an economic type thread, I will say that the "Mezger" used in competition gets rebuilds at 50 hours use at a cost of $35k at each 50 hour rebuild.interval, and the gear box as well at a cost of $10k . Used at high level DE events, rebuilds at 100 hours are common.( yea, still cost $35k)
As far as failures, yes they have them also, The 997 Turbo Mezger is known for the cams slipping, I also have seen GT3 slip the timing ring on dual mass flywheel,, and also aluminum bolts breaking on the vario cam actuators, broken timing chains, ect. along with other issues that can be catastrophic.
That said these cars are fewer in numbers and the owners are not whinners, so the issues are not as widely known.
But anyway, carry on !!
Last edited by bdronsick; 06-12-2022 at 09:11 PM.
#6948
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#6949
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I would argue that all aircooled 911 engines are "Mezgers" since they are all essentially the same block. With the 959, GT1, and 996 Turbo/GTx Porsche just put watercooled heads on it. And it's not as if the aircooled 911s weren't raced... they all have a Motorsport heritage. The only ones that do not, are the M96 Carrera engines.
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bdronsick (06-13-2022)
#6950
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I do love your enthusiasm for 996, and your knowledge and detail of Porsche History is at times astonishing !!
But just to bring some things back to Earth and since this is an economic type thread, I will say that the "Mezger" used in competition gets rebuilds at 50 hours use at a cost of $35k at each 50 hour rebuild.interval, and the gear box as well at a cost of $10k . Used at high level DE events, rebuilds at 100 hours are common.( yea, still cost $35k)
As far as failures, yes they have them also, The 997 Turbo Mezger is known for the cams slipping, I also have seen GT3 slip the timing ring on dual mass flywheel,, and also aluminum bolts breaking on the vario cam actuators, broken timing chains, ect. along with other issues that can be catastrophic.
That said these cars are fewer in numbers and the owners are not whinners, so the issues are not as widely known.
But anyway, carry on !!
But just to bring some things back to Earth and since this is an economic type thread, I will say that the "Mezger" used in competition gets rebuilds at 50 hours use at a cost of $35k at each 50 hour rebuild.interval, and the gear box as well at a cost of $10k . Used at high level DE events, rebuilds at 100 hours are common.( yea, still cost $35k)
As far as failures, yes they have them also, The 997 Turbo Mezger is known for the cams slipping, I also have seen GT3 slip the timing ring on dual mass flywheel,, and also aluminum bolts breaking on the vario cam actuators, broken timing chains, ect. along with other issues that can be catastrophic.
That said these cars are fewer in numbers and the owners are not whinners, so the issues are not as widely known.
But anyway, carry on !!
The cost of the Mezger engine is high. I believe it has to do with the number of parts and their relative tolerances/costs. Porsche tried to reign in that cost with the 991 GT3 and its derivative the 992. I don't know how much savings Porsche got, but they seem to have dialed out the gremlins in the 991.2 and 992 GT versions and with even better performance. The new GT3 engine is based on the new Carrera engine, which is probably where the bulk of the cost savings come from.
#6951
Instructor
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As much as I love the idea of owning a 996TT or a 997TT, I think the depreciation cost per mile driven would make ownership less enjoyable for me.
My high mileage 996.1 may not be a unicorn, but I drive it every damn day I can, and that makes up for it in spades.
My high mileage 996.1 may not be a unicorn, but I drive it every damn day I can, and that makes up for it in spades.
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#6952
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Yes of course! It's not that the latest 991/992 Turbo/GT motors are "cheap" by any means, they're just not overbuilt by many orders of magnitude like the Mezger was
In 1984, Andial Racing & Porsche Motorsports co-developed a brand new 3.2L watercooled and twin turbocharged flat six for Porsche's new 962 entrant in the sports-prototype endurance racing series. The motor was so successful Porsche (Marketing shrewdly) dubbed it "Mezger" in honor of Porsche's lead engineer on the Andial-Porsche design team: Hans Mezger. And then Porsche bought out Andial to further cement their perceived role in the 962's multiple LeMans victories which rapidly ensued.
However, the "Mezger" was actually never designed for mass-production. First modified for the very-limited production 959 in 1986, and then again for the even-more-limited 993/996 GT1 endurance racing series in 1996, the Mezger was, by far, the most expensive engine ever fitted into any 911 (or any car for that matter) by the time it was finally modified the last time in 1998, for the 996/997 GT-Turbo
What Porsche had saved during R&D by "recycling" the 962 engine design no less than three times, Porsche ultimately lost in spades by mass producing the 962 engine no less than two and a half decades (959, 996 & 997)
This "mass homologation" approach for the 959, 996 & 997; IE de-tuning an astronomically more costly racing platform for the road-legal cars; ultimately proved vastly more cost prohibitive than Porsche's historical method of simply "beefing up" the standard Carrera motor (like 930/964/993). So much so that Porsche CEO Weiderking pulled the plug on the turbocharged Mezger mid-997 production cycle; reverting 997.2 Turbo back to a simply turbocharged Carrera; which is precisely how 991/992 Turbos & GT's remain profitable to this day
AFWIW Porsche never substantively lowered, or raised, prices throughout the entire Mezger financial debacle. For example, it's theorized that Porsche lost at least a quarter million dollars on every 959 ever sold, so just imagine how the hyper-proliferate 997 Mezgers were gushing red ink before Weiderking dropped the axe in 2010! So IMO it's all a moral wash
Nevertheless, Andial's Mezger won LeMans Overall no less than seven times between 962 & 996GT1
(and Paris-Dakar in 959)
Unprecedented
Unsurpassed
Forever
In 1984, Andial Racing & Porsche Motorsports co-developed a brand new 3.2L watercooled and twin turbocharged flat six for Porsche's new 962 entrant in the sports-prototype endurance racing series. The motor was so successful Porsche (Marketing shrewdly) dubbed it "Mezger" in honor of Porsche's lead engineer on the Andial-Porsche design team: Hans Mezger. And then Porsche bought out Andial to further cement their perceived role in the 962's multiple LeMans victories which rapidly ensued.
However, the "Mezger" was actually never designed for mass-production. First modified for the very-limited production 959 in 1986, and then again for the even-more-limited 993/996 GT1 endurance racing series in 1996, the Mezger was, by far, the most expensive engine ever fitted into any 911 (or any car for that matter) by the time it was finally modified the last time in 1998, for the 996/997 GT-Turbo
What Porsche had saved during R&D by "recycling" the 962 engine design no less than three times, Porsche ultimately lost in spades by mass producing the 962 engine no less than two and a half decades (959, 996 & 997)
This "mass homologation" approach for the 959, 996 & 997; IE de-tuning an astronomically more costly racing platform for the road-legal cars; ultimately proved vastly more cost prohibitive than Porsche's historical method of simply "beefing up" the standard Carrera motor (like 930/964/993). So much so that Porsche CEO Weiderking pulled the plug on the turbocharged Mezger mid-997 production cycle; reverting 997.2 Turbo back to a simply turbocharged Carrera; which is precisely how 991/992 Turbos & GT's remain profitable to this day
AFWIW Porsche never substantively lowered, or raised, prices throughout the entire Mezger financial debacle. For example, it's theorized that Porsche lost at least a quarter million dollars on every 959 ever sold, so just imagine how the hyper-proliferate 997 Mezgers were gushing red ink before Weiderking dropped the axe in 2010! So IMO it's all a moral wash
Nevertheless, Andial's Mezger won LeMans Overall no less than seven times between 962 & 996GT1
(and Paris-Dakar in 959)
Unprecedented
Unsurpassed
Forever
Last edited by bdronsick; 06-13-2022 at 01:17 PM.
#6953
Drifting
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It's rare that engineers see eye to eye with finance. It's an everlasting struggle of "here is what we want to do" and "here is what you can spend". With that I think Hans Metzger would be much happier seeing his hard work be put into use as designed than accumulate value!
#6954
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While aircooled Porsche's have won at LeMans, no aircooled 911 ever has
But essentially your excellent point is correct, of course. Indeed my 2003 996 Turbo uses a 964 block
And I'm sure you meant to include 997, 991 & 992 on the list of wet-sump 911 Carrera's with no motorsports heritage![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
AFWIW the 928 is a pretty cool and collectible Porsche that was rarely, if ever raced either; see one 928's dual forays onto LeMans here
But essentially your excellent point is correct, of course. Indeed my 2003 996 Turbo uses a 964 block
And I'm sure you meant to include 997, 991 & 992 on the list of wet-sump 911 Carrera's with no motorsports heritage
![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
AFWIW the 928 is a pretty cool and collectible Porsche that was rarely, if ever raced either; see one 928's dual forays onto LeMans here
I would argue that all aircooled 911 engines are "Mezgers" since they are all essentially the same block. With the 959, GT1, and 996 Turbo/GTx Porsche just put watercooled heads on it. And it's not as if the aircooled 911s weren't raced... they all have a Motorsport heritage. The only ones that do not, are the M96 Carrera engines.
Last edited by bdronsick; 06-13-2022 at 11:28 AM.
#6956
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#6957
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Let's not ever forget the 917 and its engine...
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#6959
RL Community Team
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But yeah, the 996 truly is in that sweet spot. Modern engine management, good ergonomics, decent crash safety. & fuel economy. All of that without compromising on what makes a 911 great.
#6960
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????
RSR uses the 991 Cup engine which is a DFI dry-sump retrofit
Not as robust as the native dry-sump 962/Mezger of course, but the recent wins (see below) demonstrate just how absurdly overbuilt Mezger really was
And don't forget: the original post-Mezger early 991 GT's were recalled multiple times, and drivetrain warranty retroactively extended to 10-years/120K-miles, due to multiple engine component failures and poor oiling on track. A complete disaster for Porsche; much worse than M96 ever was. Good thing they all have round headlights and as such are considered collectible!![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
991 GT3 owners read and weep...
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...gine-warranty/
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...ouncement.html
RSR uses the 991 Cup engine which is a DFI dry-sump retrofit
Not as robust as the native dry-sump 962/Mezger of course, but the recent wins (see below) demonstrate just how absurdly overbuilt Mezger really was
And don't forget: the original post-Mezger early 991 GT's were recalled multiple times, and drivetrain warranty retroactively extended to 10-years/120K-miles, due to multiple engine component failures and poor oiling on track. A complete disaster for Porsche; much worse than M96 ever was. Good thing they all have round headlights and as such are considered collectible!
![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
991 GT3 owners read and weep...
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...gine-warranty/
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...ouncement.html
Last edited by bdronsick; 06-13-2022 at 01:26 PM.