NYoutftr

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watching now

bdronsick

I’m simply quoting Prueninger about not being able to “break” the Mezger. And I don’t doubt they were rebuilt between races, which is typical. Tech labor for Porsche is relatively free, after all

Porschetech3

Nothing is ever "Free", there is always a hook in it.....( Millennials, yea I'm looking at you..)

frederik

I would argue that all aircooled 911 engines are "Mezgers" since they are all essentially the same block. With the 959, GT1, and 996 Turbo/GTx Porsche just put watercooled heads on it. And it's not as if the aircooled 911s weren't raced... they all have a Motorsport heritage. The only ones that do not, are the M96 Carrera engines.

Marv

I would agree. To add some perspective, the 50-hour rebuilds are more of a preventative maintenance. You don't want an engine failure when racing. Racing stresses cars to the maximum. Far more than street driving.

The cost of the Mezger engine is high. I believe it has to do with the number of parts and their relative tolerances/costs. Porsche tried to reign in that cost with the 991 GT3 and its derivative the 992. I don't know how much savings Porsche got, but they seem to have dialed out the gremlins in the 991.2 and 992 GT versions and with even better performance. The new GT3 engine is based on the new Carrera engine, which is probably where the bulk of the cost savings come from.

Icelia

As much as I love the idea of owning a 996TT or a 997TT, I think the depreciation cost per mile driven would make ownership less enjoyable for me.
My high mileage 996.1 may not be a unicorn, but I drive it every damn day I can, and that makes up for it in spades.

bdronsick

Yes of course! It's not that the latest 991/992 Turbo/GT motors are "cheap" by any means, they're just not overbuilt by many orders of magnitude like the Mezger was

In 1984, Andial Racing & Porsche Motorsports co-developed a brand new 3.2L watercooled and twin turbocharged flat six for Porsche's new 962 entrant in the sports-prototype endurance racing series. The motor was so successful Porsche (Marketing shrewdly) dubbed it "Mezger" in honor of Porsche's lead engineer on the Andial-Porsche design team: Hans Mezger. And then Porsche bought out Andial to further cement their perceived role in the 962's multiple LeMans victories which rapidly ensued.

However, the "Mezger" was actually never designed for mass-production. First modified for the very-limited production 959 in 1986, and then again for the even-more-limited 993/996 GT1 endurance racing series in 1996, the Mezger was, by far, the most expensive engine ever fitted into any 911 (or any car for that matter) by the time it was finally modified the last time in 1998, for the 996/997 GT-Turbo

What Porsche had saved during R&D by "recycling" the 962 engine design no less than three times, Porsche ultimately lost in spades by mass producing the 962 engine no less than two and a half decades (959, 996 & 997)

This "mass homologation" approach for the 959, 996 & 997; IE de-tuning an astronomically more costly racing platform for the road-legal cars; ultimately proved vastly more cost prohibitive than Porsche's historical method of simply "beefing up" the standard Carrera motor (like 930/964/993). So much so that Porsche CEO Weiderking pulled the plug on the turbocharged Mezger mid-997 production cycle; reverting 997.2 Turbo back to a simply turbocharged Carrera; which is precisely how 991/992 Turbos & GT's remain profitable to this day

AFWIW Porsche never substantively lowered, or raised, prices throughout the entire Mezger financial debacle. For example, it's theorized that Porsche lost at least a quarter million dollars on every 959 ever sold, so just imagine how the hyper-proliferate 997 Mezgers were gushing red ink before Weiderking dropped the axe in 2010! So IMO it's all a moral wash

Nevertheless, Andial's Mezger won LeMans Overall no less than seven times between 962 & 996GT1

(and Paris-Dakar in 959)

Unprecedented

Unsurpassed

Forever

plpete84

It's only the case if you're planning to sell the car at some point - besides that depreciation shouldn't matter. Unless you get kicks out of driving a car that has a certain market value, but I think a 996TT or 997TT would provide much different return on investment - one you can't really put a price on

It's rare that engineers see eye to eye with finance. It's an everlasting struggle of "here is what we want to do" and "here is what you can spend". With that I think Hans Metzger would be much happier seeing his hard work be put into use as designed than accumulate value!

bdronsick

While aircooled Porsche's have won at LeMans, no aircooled 911 ever has

But essentially your excellent point is correct, of course. Indeed my 2003 996 Turbo uses a 964 block

And I'm sure you meant to include 997, 991 & 992 on the list of wet-sump 911 Carrera's with no motorsports heritage

AFWIW the 928 is a pretty cool and collectible Porsche that was rarely, if ever raced either; see one 928's dual forays onto LeMans here

bdronsick

On the contrary, the Mezger's much greater potential for appreciation over time, vastly offsets actual depreciation for mileage

frederik

Correct, but many other races were won though! Targa Florio, Monte Carlo, you name it.

Most definitely. I just don't think about them very often.

GC996

Let's not ever forget the 917 and its engine...

plpete84

I think the wet sump engines are doing just fine and forging their own motorsports heritage - heritage takes time. This weekend, in the GTE Pro category the 911 RSR finished first.

brontosaurus

Honestly the more I look at the 997, the less I like the design .Of the watercooleds (at least by styling), it would have to be 996>992>991>997 for me (at least for narrowbody cars, wide body I would have to shove the 992 to the back haha).

But yeah, the 996 truly is in that sweet spot. Modern engine management, good ergonomics, decent crash safety. & fuel economy. All of that without compromising on what makes a 911 great.

bdronsick

????

RSR uses the 991 Cup engine which is a DFI dry-sump retrofit

Not as robust as the native dry-sump 962/Mezger of course, but the recent wins (see below) demonstrate just how absurdly overbuilt Mezger really was

And don't forget: the original post-Mezger early 991 GT's were recalled multiple times, and drivetrain warranty retroactively extended to 10-years/120K-miles, due to multiple engine component failures and poor oiling on track. A complete disaster for Porsche; much worse than M96 ever was. Good thing they all have round headlights and as such are considered collectible!

991 GT3 owners read and weep...
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...gine-warranty/
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...ouncement.html