When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Well I think the small guys are the ones that probably drop the market the fastest (and are the majority of flippers and the ones that run it up to being with).
Of the 174+ 992 GT3 for sale, it is going to be the desperate one that needs to compete with the lowest price 249k CPO 1k mile gt3 for sale right now, and list theirs at 230 or 240 and sell for a lot less as people put so much value on going to a porsche dealer and buying in my experience.
The 400k 2016 gt3rs's dropped to 200k faster than anyone imagined, literally less than 12 months, then they sank to 150k-175k fairly quickly once the 991.2's were delivered as well.
Yup, there were $150k-$200k ADMs out there on the 991.1 GT3RS because people thought they'd only bring over less than a 1,000 cars to the US....sounds a bit familiar, huh?
Well I think the small guys are the ones that probably drop the market the fastest (and are the majority of flippers and the ones that run it up to being with).
Of the 174+ 992 GT3 for sale, it is going to be the desperate one that needs to compete with the lowest price 249k CPO 1k mile gt3 for sale right now, and list theirs at 230 or 240 and sell for a lot less as people put so much value on going to a porsche dealer and buying in my experience.
The 400k 2016 gt3rs's dropped to 200k faster than anyone imagined, literally less than 12 months, then they sank to 150k-175k fairly quickly once the 991.2's were delivered as well.
There's four or five of you on here that are trying to keep a narrative going and it is not rooted in any reality that is actually happening on the ground. I'm not sure if your guys strategy is to try to keep people on the sidelines or to try to make them feel stupid and that will allow you to buy the car at the price you guys want. Its not working fwiw. its just not what is happening on real life.
The ADM's didn't stop from the 2016 era. They slowed down a little bit and some people at the end got them at MSRP in 2019 (991.2 rs). It kicked back up in 2021 and is here to stay. History in the car market (especially at the above $200K level), is not your guide of what is going to happen now and in the future. It's not like housing or the stock market.
Much more of the wealth is now interested in these cars. There is many more buyers who are interested in these cars. The GT cars even with ADM's are on the lower price of the luxury car market. About 15,000 brand new cars every year in USA are sold for higher and substantially higher prices then the porsche GT cars (mclarens/ferrari/lambo/rolls royce/bentleys). The money is there. Most of the supercar buyers don't care for the cheaper GT cars (lucky for the GT buyers). If those buyers all of a sudden got interested in the GT cars, then they would become unobtainable for the typical person who has interest in the GT cars. (FWIW; I live in a fairly big gated neighborhood in SF Bay Area. It's an open secret of why people buy these cars (cost to entry vs. the supercars and porsche dealers know this and know that people can go higher then MSRP and they have an entire price range upto $300K to themselves. There is about 100 supercars that reside in my neighborhood. Only one Porsche GT3rs resides inside the gates. Most do NOT have any interest in the porsche GT cars.)
A 100k ADM on an RS is really nothing on a percentage basis, especially when Toyota dealers are asking for a 60% ADM on a base GR Corolla.
Yeah if you look outside of the Porsche world you will see several "regular" cars with continuing ADMs. Civic Type R, Golf R, GR Corolla, TRD Pro Toyotas, Raptor, etc.
My local VW dealer is asking 5k ADM on an Incoming Golf R. I asked for MSRP and they said they have over 25 people on the interest list. I'm sure someone will pay that markup.
you are really underestimating the financial strength of the franchised dealers and the patience they can and do have .
they make a lot of money from service and recurring revenues from financing and all the add on’s. (Service and warranty work isn’t impacted by interest rates or recession type things )
they’ve made a lot of money on adm’s and losing on a couple of cars still makes them way , way ahead from what they have been selling them at in the past . They will not be doing any type of fire sales at all .
Agree on your point about franchised dealerships being willing and able to hold onto a car as i stated in my previous post about them keeping them on their showroom, especially when overall inventory has been low, so their annual interest expense is probably the lowest its been in years. What about the non franchised dealers? There are a lot of cars being sold by non franchised dealers, if they can't afford to hold inventory, wouldnt they reduce their prices? If they reduce their prices, would a franchised dealer just keep their prices and not be competitive? These are just questions I am asking, not trying to make definitive statements here. I work in tech M&A, and one of our verticals is auto tech, so I have been working with tech companies that sell into dealers, so this is just interesting info to me. appreciate the insight, as I am sure many people here have much more info than I do on how dealerships operate. I have spent most of my career within distressed debt, so I do have my own opinions on where things are headed on a macro level which i will not share here, but I also understand how there are always outliers within asset classes.
Yeah if you look outside of the Porsche world you will see several "regular" cars with continuing ADMs. Civic Type R, Golf R, GR Corolla, TRD Pro Toyotas, Raptor, etc.
My local VW dealer is asking 5k ADM on an Incoming Golf R. I asked for MSRP and they said they have over 25 people on the interest list. I'm sure someone will pay that markup.
Yup, that's reality.
But there are a handful of posters here that just keep repeating pure "fantasy".
There's four or five of you on here that are trying to keep a narrative going and it is not rooted in any reality that is actually happening on the ground. I'm not sure if your guys strategy is to try to keep people on the sidelines or to try to make them feel stupid and that will allow you to buy the car at the price you guys want. Its not working fwiw. its just not what is happening on real life.
The ADM's didn't stop from the 2016 era. They slowed down a little bit and some people at the end got them at MSRP in 2019 (991.2 rs). It kicked back up in 2021 and is here to stay. History in the car market (especially at the above $200K level), is not your guide of what is going to happen now and in the future. It's not like housing or the stock market.
Much more of the wealth is now interested in these cars. There is many more buyers who are interested in these cars. The GT cars even with ADM's are on the lower price of the luxury car market. About 15,000 brand new cars every year in USA are sold for higher and substantially higher prices then the porsche GT cars (mclarens/ferrari/lambo/rolls royce/bentleys). The money is there. Most of the supercar buyers don't care for the cheaper GT cars (lucky for the GT buyers). If those buyers all of a sudden got interested in the GT cars, then they would become unobtainable for the typical person who has interest in the GT cars. (FWIW; I live in a fairly big gated neighborhood in SF Bay Area. It's an open secret of why people buy these cars (cost to entry vs. the supercars and porsche dealers know this and know that people can go higher then MSRP and they have an entire price range upto $300K to themselves. There is about 100 supercars that reside in my neighborhood. Only one Porsche GT3rs resides inside the gates. Most do NOT have any interest in the porsche GT cars.)
You're living a delusion, now there are WAY WAY more GT cars on the market after the last 7 years of Porsche building 5x what they did with the 996 and 997's via 991 and 992 from when the 16 RS was released. Check this thread to see history repeat itself: https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...es-thread.html
here are some highlights:
This was when the market started to slip too, 6-9 months after 1st ones landed.
These were 200k-225k cars only 12 months later, and about 150-175k 24 months after that.
Sound familiar? 992 GT3 will be 150k-175k sometime in 2023 whether u want to believe it or not, that is what new sports cars do....they depreciate. If you can't handle that go buy something else.
Your agenda is a joke buddy, "us 5 people" are the ones being financially responsible by telling the people here their new Porsche will depreciate.....It's like gravity. You must be a flat earther with your mentality lol
EDIT: if the adm's didn't stop from 2016, why was I offered all new mainly in early 2019, 991.2 3rs for sticker, a speedster for sticker, a 991.2 GT3 for 30k off, tourings for sticker....I mean what are you talking about?
Last edited by welikethetrack; 12-01-2022 at 04:44 PM.
Your agenda is a joke buddy, "us 5 people" are the ones being financially responsible by telling the people here their new Porsche will depreciate.....It's like gravity. You must be a flat earther with your mentality lol
Wow, sports cars depreciate?
Who knew???
Thank you so much for letting us know.
You sound like a real genius.
Agree on your point about franchised dealerships being willing and able to hold onto a car as i stated in my previous post about them keeping them on their showroom, especially when overall inventory has been low, so their annual interest expense is probably the lowest its been in years. What about the non franchised dealers? There are a lot of cars being sold by non franchised dealers, if they can't afford to hold inventory, wouldnt they reduce their prices? If they reduce their prices, would a franchised dealer just keep their prices and not be competitive? These are just questions I am asking, not trying to make definitive statements here. I work in tech M&A, and one of our verticals is auto tech, so I have been working with tech companies that sell into dealers, so this is just interesting info to me. appreciate the insight, as I am sure many people here have much more info than I do on how dealerships operate. I have spent most of my career within distressed debt, so I do have my own opinions on where things are headed on a macro level which i will not share here, but I also understand how there are always outliers within asset classes.
Not all dealers use flooring, lots of dealers made lots of money in the prior 18 months and unless they over-extended significantly they should be fine. I have a small independent dealership and we do not floor any vehicles and I have friends who also are the same. Having said that, I know over the last 3-4 months flooring companies have raised rates nearly double so dealers that relied heavily on flooring will be impacted in coming months.
I have been told recently by three dealers that they were instructed to ditch used inventory at auction in 6 weeks as compared to regular three months because of anticipated market decline and the losses they incurred on used cars recently
even if financially strong , dealers make decisions on what they perceive the strength of the market as compared to their financial strength
This makes sense, because even if a dealer is financially strong it wouldnt make sense to hold onto inventory unless they thought prices were increasing, which they very well may think could happen. It just seems risky. I don't see them liquidating GT3s at auction though, there are some that have been listed over 200 days, and they are not moving on price at all.
You're living a delusion, now there are WAY WAY more GT cars on the market after the last 7 years of Porsche building 5x what they did with the 996 and 997's via 991 and 992 from when the 16 RS was released. Check this thread to see history repeat itself: https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...es-thread.html
here are some highlights:
This was when the market started to slip too, 6-9 months after 1st ones landed.
These were 200k-225k cars only 12 months later, and about 150-175k 24 months after that.
Sound familiar? 992 GT3 will be 150k-175k sometime in 2023 whether u want to believe it or not, that is what new sports cars do....they depreciate. If you can't handle that go buy something else.
Your agenda is a joke buddy, "us 5 people" are the ones being financially responsible by telling the people here their new Porsche will depreciate.....It's like gravity. You must be a flat earther with your mentality lol
EDIT: if the adm's didn't stop from 2016, why was I offered all new mainly in early 2019, 991.2 3rs for sticker, a speedster for sticker, a 991.2 GT3 for 30k off, tourings for sticker....I mean what are you talking about?
I didn’t even read all that .
Adm’s not stopping meant the future new cars were still selling with adm’s .
there’s some people buying 992 gt3rs at msrp . No buying history with the dealer, nothing . They are taking a significant haircut on the trade, buying all the add on’s. Doing a one pay lease . It’s coming out to $500k . They can say that they are getting it at msrp though .
as I said ; this is not the stock market or housing . A lot of you guys are doing simpleton analysis that many of us old guys who are reading these types of postings just wind up shaking our heads .
Not all dealers use flooring, lots of dealers made lots of money in the prior 18 months and unless they over-extended significantly they should be fine. I have a small independent dealership and we do not floor any vehicles and I have friends who also are the same. Having said that, I know over the last 3-4 months flooring companies have raised rates nearly double so dealers that relied heavily on flooring will be impacted in coming months.
thanks for that info. What types of dealerships are more likely to use flooring companies? Would larger dealership groups be the ones relying more heavily on them?
At least in my experience majority have some form of floor plan, if not they have access to some other form of similar credit. Rates given the risk profile is generally the same tend to follow similar trajectories. Lots of flavors of plans but the fundamentals are similar. The business relies on volume and velocity of deals to fund the leverage. In the last 20 years the number of specialty floor plans, eg beyond factory offered floor planning, has grown significantly. There is a lot of leverage out there of one form or another.
12-01-2022, 03:29 PM
