Consolidated 991RS thread
01-21-2015, 10:26 PM
#3631
Assuming everything some are deducing from a few comments is true, that's a fair comeback. OTOH, maybe the 2014-15's are Porsche's last true low volume model specific engines, before going to a design that will be even more modular and appear in different forms across all model lines.
Either way, I'm not nervous. Gonna own this car a long time.....
Either way, I'm not nervous. Gonna own this car a long time.....
01-21-2015, 10:39 PM
#3632
Race Director
I don't see how it's the wrong comparison. On the 997 models, I don't recall talk of "completely new" engines between the regular GT3 and the RS nor during the displacement change associated with the 4.0 release, which is very similar to what everyone is expecting on this RS.
The question here is, what was meant by those comments that were quoted? Is the new RS engine completely new compared to the 991 GT3 or is it completely new compared to the previous 997 RS?
If it's completely new compared to the 991 GT3 then we have a scoop. If it's new compared to the previous RS then we don't.
01-21-2015, 10:51 PM
#3633
Add me to the hat eaters list please.
Also, regarding the Carrera and Carrera S, when they become turbo charged, I believe the difference in outputs will not be 100+hp but will maintain a similar ratio as previous/current models; just look at the Panamera line when it went turbo (except the GTS). To me, it was a rumor gone wild, simply because it was started by an auto journalist, a "professional".
Also, regarding the Carrera and Carrera S, when they become turbo charged, I believe the difference in outputs will not be 100+hp but will maintain a similar ratio as previous/current models; just look at the Panamera line when it went turbo (except the GTS). To me, it was a rumor gone wild, simply because it was started by an auto journalist, a "professional".
01-21-2015, 11:29 PM
#3634
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Clearly this hasn't been debated enough....so bear with me.
1) The 9A1 motor is a seemingly viable and reliable engine that has performed well since its introduction. The fire fiascos are really nothing more than a sideshow. As a production oriented, high volume motor it has delivered as required and inevitably can be tweaked or improved further.
2) The Mezger is the time proven warrior. But it is long in the tooth. Despite being heavy and having a higher CG, it remains the only Motorsport option for a reason. It works and is incredibly reliable. To finish first, you must first finish. Rule number one in racing.
3) Porsche knew the 9A1 wasn't going into cup cars long before the fire issue. Same with the R and RSR. They simply have not deemed that engine up to the rigors of a Motorsport application. Endless top end RPM operation, endurance racing capable, readily rebuildable, bulletproof reliability. We have now received the third year of deliveries of 991 based cups. Mezger power. Period. I suspect the same next year as well.
4) The customer base for road cars has evolved to a much broader market, most of whom have no knowledge or interest as to the link between a Motorsport engine and a road car engine. The former will cost more to produce, rendering it economically unattractive for a Motorsport driven platform to supply the full range of 991 Turbos, GT3s, RSs, etc.
5) Yet we need a new motor in the paddock. One that not only delivers the high revving capability, lighter weight and lower center of gravity of the 9A1, but also the robustness of the Mezger. Cost is relevant, but not the primary consideration. There also needs to be a homologation path for this engine.
I think the above is generally factual. It therefore seems logical that a new RS provides a pathway to engine homologation, sufficient but limited volume without endless fretting over unit costs and a year or more on the street before it goes to the track. Call it the Mezger 2 or the 9A1 Motorsport motor or whatever.
My broader point is that most of the other posts here have seemingly approached the engine question as the road car driving the Motorsport application. Turn it around for a moment. What if the Motorsport application (and real need) is driving the road car application. A strictly limited road car application in the RS. Everybody else gets a motor for civilians. That's what they have in place now and nobody is bitching except a few dozen lunatics on Rennlist. In that context the RS as the mule makes sense. And chronologically it fits into .2 cup delivery schedules for 2017 models.
Speculative for sure. But this makes sense to me.
1) The 9A1 motor is a seemingly viable and reliable engine that has performed well since its introduction. The fire fiascos are really nothing more than a sideshow. As a production oriented, high volume motor it has delivered as required and inevitably can be tweaked or improved further.
2) The Mezger is the time proven warrior. But it is long in the tooth. Despite being heavy and having a higher CG, it remains the only Motorsport option for a reason. It works and is incredibly reliable. To finish first, you must first finish. Rule number one in racing.
3) Porsche knew the 9A1 wasn't going into cup cars long before the fire issue. Same with the R and RSR. They simply have not deemed that engine up to the rigors of a Motorsport application. Endless top end RPM operation, endurance racing capable, readily rebuildable, bulletproof reliability. We have now received the third year of deliveries of 991 based cups. Mezger power. Period. I suspect the same next year as well.
4) The customer base for road cars has evolved to a much broader market, most of whom have no knowledge or interest as to the link between a Motorsport engine and a road car engine. The former will cost more to produce, rendering it economically unattractive for a Motorsport driven platform to supply the full range of 991 Turbos, GT3s, RSs, etc.
5) Yet we need a new motor in the paddock. One that not only delivers the high revving capability, lighter weight and lower center of gravity of the 9A1, but also the robustness of the Mezger. Cost is relevant, but not the primary consideration. There also needs to be a homologation path for this engine.
I think the above is generally factual. It therefore seems logical that a new RS provides a pathway to engine homologation, sufficient but limited volume without endless fretting over unit costs and a year or more on the street before it goes to the track. Call it the Mezger 2 or the 9A1 Motorsport motor or whatever.
My broader point is that most of the other posts here have seemingly approached the engine question as the road car driving the Motorsport application. Turn it around for a moment. What if the Motorsport application (and real need) is driving the road car application. A strictly limited road car application in the RS. Everybody else gets a motor for civilians. That's what they have in place now and nobody is bitching except a few dozen lunatics on Rennlist. In that context the RS as the mule makes sense. And chronologically it fits into .2 cup delivery schedules for 2017 models.
Speculative for sure. But this makes sense to me.
01-21-2015, 11:34 PM
#3635
Race Director
Clearly this hasn't been debated enough....so bear with me.
1) The 9A1 motor is a seemingly viable and reliable engine that has performed well since its introduction. The fire fiascos are really nothing more than a sideshow. As a production oriented, high volume motor it has delivered as required and inevitably can be tweaked or improved further.
2) The Mezger is the time proven warrior. But it is long in the tooth. Despite being heavy and having a higher CG, it remains the only Motorsport option for a reason. It works and is incredibly reliable. To finish first, you must first finish. Rule number one in racing.
3) Porsche knew the 9A1 wasn't going into cup cars long before the fire issue. Same with the R and RSR. They simply have not deemed that engine up to the rigors of a Motorsport application. Endless top end RPM operation, endurance racing capable, readily rebuildable, bulletproof reliability. We have now received the third year of deliveries of 991 based cups. Mezger power. Period. I suspect the same next year as well.
4) The customer base for road cars has evolved to a much broader market, most of whom have no knowledge or interest as to the link between a Motorsport engine and a road car engine. The former will cost more to produce, rendering it economically unattractive for a Motorsport driven platform to supply the full range of 991 Turbos, GT3s, RSs, etc.
5) Yet we need a new motor in the paddock. One that not only delivers the high revving capability, lighter weight and lower center of gravity of the 9A1, but also the robustness of the Mezger. Cost is relevant, but not the primary consideration. There also needs to be a homologation path for this engine.
I think the above is generally factual. It therefore seems logical that a new RS provides a pathway to engine homologation, sufficient but limited volume without endless fretting over unit costs and a year or more on the street before it goes to the track. Call it the Mezger 2 or the 9A1 Motorsport motor or whatever.
My broader point is that most of the other posts here have seemingly approached the engine question as the road car driving the Motorsport application. Turn it around for a moment. What if the Motorsport application (and real need) is driving the road car application. A strictly limited road car application in the RS. Everybody else gets a motor for civilians. That's what they have in place now and nobody is bitching except a few dozen lunatics on Rennlist. In that context the RS as the mule makes sense. And chronologically it fits into .2 cup delivery schedules for 2017 models.
Speculative for sure. But this makes sense to me.
1) The 9A1 motor is a seemingly viable and reliable engine that has performed well since its introduction. The fire fiascos are really nothing more than a sideshow. As a production oriented, high volume motor it has delivered as required and inevitably can be tweaked or improved further.
2) The Mezger is the time proven warrior. But it is long in the tooth. Despite being heavy and having a higher CG, it remains the only Motorsport option for a reason. It works and is incredibly reliable. To finish first, you must first finish. Rule number one in racing.
3) Porsche knew the 9A1 wasn't going into cup cars long before the fire issue. Same with the R and RSR. They simply have not deemed that engine up to the rigors of a Motorsport application. Endless top end RPM operation, endurance racing capable, readily rebuildable, bulletproof reliability. We have now received the third year of deliveries of 991 based cups. Mezger power. Period. I suspect the same next year as well.
4) The customer base for road cars has evolved to a much broader market, most of whom have no knowledge or interest as to the link between a Motorsport engine and a road car engine. The former will cost more to produce, rendering it economically unattractive for a Motorsport driven platform to supply the full range of 991 Turbos, GT3s, RSs, etc.
5) Yet we need a new motor in the paddock. One that not only delivers the high revving capability, lighter weight and lower center of gravity of the 9A1, but also the robustness of the Mezger. Cost is relevant, but not the primary consideration. There also needs to be a homologation path for this engine.
I think the above is generally factual. It therefore seems logical that a new RS provides a pathway to engine homologation, sufficient but limited volume without endless fretting over unit costs and a year or more on the street before it goes to the track. Call it the Mezger 2 or the 9A1 Motorsport motor or whatever.
My broader point is that most of the other posts here have seemingly approached the engine question as the road car driving the Motorsport application. Turn it around for a moment. What if the Motorsport application (and real need) is driving the road car application. A strictly limited road car application in the RS. Everybody else gets a motor for civilians. That's what they have in place now and nobody is bitching except a few dozen lunatics on Rennlist. In that context the RS as the mule makes sense. And chronologically it fits into .2 cup delivery schedules for 2017 models.
Speculative for sure. But this makes sense to me.
01-21-2015, 11:44 PM
#3636
Pole sitter, kudos to a sensible summation. In general agreement with all stated. We are approaching a novel of suspense and speculation and hopefully the punch line will be delivered soon! Can't wait!
01-21-2015, 11:57 PM
#3637
Rennlist Member
Polesitter. Love the summary and agree with much of what you say and your POV.
Only difference with what I am saying is that 991 GT3 engin is infact the blueprint for the 991 GT3RS engine and both together will form the basis of the "all new engine" which is simply marketing speak as it will likely share alot of existing tech like say M86/M97 for production vehicles.
Everyone is getting hung up on the semantics from a mass reproduced media sound bite. Also PAG do not wish to say the "all new engine" is a derivative of an engine that was highly publicised to have had engine fires (when in fact this only happened to two engines we know about). The GT2 & RS engines will be very closely related you will see with most changes being in relation to fastenings and hardware die to capacity increase/piston momentum etc. This is another storm in tea cup like other speculation on here over last 12 months. We were talking KERS last week!
I must go. I dont want to over stew my hat LOL!
Only difference with what I am saying is that 991 GT3 engin is infact the blueprint for the 991 GT3RS engine and both together will form the basis of the "all new engine" which is simply marketing speak as it will likely share alot of existing tech like say M86/M97 for production vehicles.
Everyone is getting hung up on the semantics from a mass reproduced media sound bite. Also PAG do not wish to say the "all new engine" is a derivative of an engine that was highly publicised to have had engine fires (when in fact this only happened to two engines we know about). The GT2 & RS engines will be very closely related you will see with most changes being in relation to fastenings and hardware die to capacity increase/piston momentum etc. This is another storm in tea cup like other speculation on here over last 12 months. We were talking KERS last week!
I must go. I dont want to over stew my hat LOL!
01-22-2015, 12:06 AM
#3638
Rennlist Member
In about 6 weeks it will be interesting to see who was closest to the target. For now I'd be happy being able to use what I have in the garage at 90% of it's capability.
01-22-2015, 01:24 AM
#3639
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Polesitter. Love the summary and agree with much of what you say and your POV. Only difference with what I am saying is that 991 GT3 engin is infact the blueprint for the 991 GT3RS engine and both together will form the basis of the "all new engine" which is simply marketing speak as it will likely share alot of existing tech like say M86/M97 for production vehicles. Everyone is getting hung up on the semantics from a mass reproduced media sound bite. Also PAG do not wish to say the "all new engine" is a derivative of an engine that was highly publicised to have had engine fires (when in fact this only happened to two engines we know about). The GT2 & RS engines will be very closely related you will see with most changes being in relation to fastenings and hardware die to capacity increase/piston momentum etc. This is another storm in tea cup like other speculation on here over last 12 months. We were talking KERS last week! I must go. I dont want to over stew my hat LOL!
As an aside, I did mention in a previous post that it has been vaguely hinted (and I heard some unconfirmed anecdotal chatter in the paddock) that there is another serious motor lurking around Weissach that is being vetted. The context was race engine. Maybe BS, but I circle back to racing reality and that they truly need to do something soon. Frankly, this transcends engines as well, but that's for another day.
Maybe the RS serves as a platform for this initiative. It spreads out some R&D costs, provides the RS a halo effect, serves as a homologation platform, enables a bigger pricing premium, satisfies the bean counters because they aren't putting it in umpteen thousand road going units, the hard core constituency gets a lump of sugar and this thread shuts down before it hits 500 pages !!!
01-22-2015, 03:00 AM
#3641
Three Wheelin'
The question here is, what was meant by those comments that were quoted? Is the new RS engine completely new compared to the 991 GT3 or is it completely new compared to the previous 997 RS?
If it's completely new compared to the 991 GT3 then we have a scoop. If it's new compared to the previous RS then we don't.
If it's completely new compared to the 991 GT3 then we have a scoop. If it's new compared to the previous RS then we don't.
But, and this is big news, it will have a brand new engine related to neither the old race-derived engines used in previous GT3 and GT2 models, nor the motor in the current GT3.
Also, reading the Motorsports Magazine article, I don't think it is one quote to one journalist that is being regurgitated, but different interviews to the different media outlets -
Each slot is typically half an hour, so you spend an hour collating a list of questions to ask said manufacturer’s representative...
...And then, every so often, you come across someone like Wolfgang Hatz. As the head of R&D for Porsche, he’s about as interesting a bloke as you’ll find in this racket, but more importantly, he understands you’re in that room to do a job and that, so far as is professionally possible, he is there to help you in that regard. In my half an hour with him I discovered more than I have at entire shows without access to such enlightened executives. And what’s odd is I don’t think he was being indiscreet nor do I think it was my rat-like cunning that eked the information from him without him realising. Although almost all was proper news, within a few months almost all would also be old news, so was precious little to lose.
...And then, every so often, you come across someone like Wolfgang Hatz. As the head of R&D for Porsche, he’s about as interesting a bloke as you’ll find in this racket, but more importantly, he understands you’re in that room to do a job and that, so far as is professionally possible, he is there to help you in that regard. In my half an hour with him I discovered more than I have at entire shows without access to such enlightened executives. And what’s odd is I don’t think he was being indiscreet nor do I think it was my rat-like cunning that eked the information from him without him realising. Although almost all was proper news, within a few months almost all would also be old news, so was precious little to lose.
01-22-2015, 06:22 AM
#3643
Rennlist Member
We may be saying the same thing differently. The 991 GT3 engine could very well be the blueprint for what is deemed an "all new" engine. Perhaps a derivative of the 9A1 with various changes and component enhancements gets PM where they need to be. What is truly new or revolutionary vs evolutionary may be semantics. Although with this much time to develop a 9A1 derivative and it still not be deemed worthy of an invitation to the Motorsport prom, maybe it is more new than old.
As an aside, I did mention in a previous post that it has been vaguely hinted (and I heard some unconfirmed anecdotal chatter in the paddock) that there is another serious motor lurking around Weissach that is being vetted. The context was race engine. Maybe BS, but I circle back to racing reality and that they truly need to do something soon. Frankly, this transcends engines as well, but that's for another day.
Maybe the RS serves as a platform for this initiative. It spreads out some R&D costs, provides the RS a halo effect, serves as a homologation platform, enables a bigger pricing premium, satisfies the bean counters because they aren't putting it in umpteen thousand road going units, the hard core constituency gets a lump of sugar and this thread shuts down before it hits 500 pages !!!
As an aside, I did mention in a previous post that it has been vaguely hinted (and I heard some unconfirmed anecdotal chatter in the paddock) that there is another serious motor lurking around Weissach that is being vetted. The context was race engine. Maybe BS, but I circle back to racing reality and that they truly need to do something soon. Frankly, this transcends engines as well, but that's for another day.
Maybe the RS serves as a platform for this initiative. It spreads out some R&D costs, provides the RS a halo effect, serves as a homologation platform, enables a bigger pricing premium, satisfies the bean counters because they aren't putting it in umpteen thousand road going units, the hard core constituency gets a lump of sugar and this thread shuts down before it hits 500 pages !!!
Sunny R. Frankel appears to have been the only journalist from many who got his interview. Most of the reports I have read including the EVO mag one are taken off the wire. Quite honestly I have little faith these days in reporting on the web. However its the only thing Ive read so far that has made me curious. I believe the question was wrongly worded or inaccurately answered...but I wasnt there to tell...
01-22-2015, 06:28 AM
#3644
Race Car
Sunny R. Frankel appears to have been the only journalist from many who got his interview. Most of the reports I have read including the EVO mag one are taken off the wire. Quite honestly I have little faith these days in reporting on the web. However its the only thing Ive read so far that has made me curious. I believe the question was wrongly worded or inaccurately answered...but I wasnt there to tell...
The lack of obvious follow up questions - the ones discussed here at Rennlist - is maybe evidence of this.
Anyway: It is exciting times :-)
01-22-2015, 09:50 AM
#3645
Clearly this hasn't been debated enough....so bear with me. 1) The 9A1 motor is a seemingly viable and reliable engine that has performed well since its introduction. The fire fiascos are really nothing more than a sideshow. As a production oriented, high volume motor it has delivered as required and inevitably can be tweaked or improved further. 2) The Mezger is the time proven warrior. But it is long in the tooth. Despite being heavy and having a higher CG, it remains the only Motorsport option for a reason. It works and is incredibly reliable. To finish first, you must first finish. Rule number one in racing. 3) Porsche knew the 9A1 wasn't going into cup cars long before the fire issue. Same with the R and RSR. They simply have not deemed that engine up to the rigors of a Motorsport application. Endless top end RPM operation, endurance racing capable, readily rebuildable, bulletproof reliability. We have now received the third year of deliveries of 991 based cups. Mezger power. Period. I suspect the same next year as well. 4) The customer base for road cars has evolved to a much broader market, most of whom have no knowledge or interest as to the link between a Motorsport engine and a road car engine. The former will cost more to produce, rendering it economically unattractive for a Motorsport driven platform to supply the full range of 991 Turbos, GT3s, RSs, etc. 5) Yet we need a new motor in the paddock. One that not only delivers the high revving capability, lighter weight and lower center of gravity of the 9A1, but also the robustness of the Mezger. Cost is relevant, but not the primary consideration. There also needs to be a homologation path for this engine. I think the above is generally factual. It therefore seems logical that a new RS provides a pathway to engine homologation, sufficient but limited volume without endless fretting over unit costs and a year or more on the street before it goes to the track. Call it the Mezger 2 or the 9A1 Motorsport motor or whatever. My broader point is that most of the other posts here have seemingly approached the engine question as the road car driving the Motorsport application. Turn it around for a moment. What if the Motorsport application (and real need) is driving the road car application. A strictly limited road car application in the RS. Everybody else gets a motor for civilians. That's what they have in place now and nobody is bitching except a few dozen lunatics on Rennlist. In that context the RS as the mule makes sense. And chronologically it fits into .2 cup delivery schedules for 2017 models. Speculative for sure. But this makes sense to me.