Consolidated 991RS thread
01-22-2015, 04:36 PM
#3676
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I suspect the focus on what happens with RS as a driver of base GT3 values is overdone. The scarcity and increasingly divergent design briefs suggest less impact than in the past.
My guess is that what happens with the 991.2 GT3 has greater potential to impact 991.1 GT3 values. If the 991.2 GT3 sees a "new" naturally aspirated motor coupled with the normal small refinements of gen2 offerings, then I'd expect normal depreciation on 991.1, i.e., what was witnessed with the 997.1/997.2 GT3 transition prior to the 991 GT3 details leaking. On the other hand, if the 991.2 GT3 incorporates turbo and/or hybrid then I'd expect very strong price support for the 991.1 GT3 similar to what we've witnessed with recent 997 GT3 prices.
My guess is that what happens with the 991.2 GT3 has greater potential to impact 991.1 GT3 values. If the 991.2 GT3 sees a "new" naturally aspirated motor coupled with the normal small refinements of gen2 offerings, then I'd expect normal depreciation on 991.1, i.e., what was witnessed with the 997.1/997.2 GT3 transition prior to the 991 GT3 details leaking. On the other hand, if the 991.2 GT3 incorporates turbo and/or hybrid then I'd expect very strong price support for the 991.1 GT3 similar to what we've witnessed with recent 997 GT3 prices.
Last edited by Nizer; 01-22-2015 at 04:52 PM.
01-22-2015, 04:50 PM
#3677
Race Director
I don't think that's true at all... Even if Petevb was correct and the engine is an evolutionary design, the very fact that the marketing spin suggest otherwise is potentially problematic.
Most GT3 buyers will have been aware of the engine malfunctions. If the marketing around the RS is that it has a completely new engine as it appears it will be so far then that will imply that Porsche is moving on from the GT3 engine and people will conclude from that that it was a flawed and then orphaned design.
I think there's a lot of owners here who are 'talking their book'. Owners that are deeply invested and want to believe that there (1) isn't a completely new engine in the RS and (2) that there isn't going to be any resale impact from the engine issues... that they were compensated for.
Most GT3 buyers will have been aware of the engine malfunctions. If the marketing around the RS is that it has a completely new engine as it appears it will be so far then that will imply that Porsche is moving on from the GT3 engine and people will conclude from that that it was a flawed and then orphaned design.
I think there's a lot of owners here who are 'talking their book'. Owners that are deeply invested and want to believe that there (1) isn't a completely new engine in the RS and (2) that there isn't going to be any resale impact from the engine issues... that they were compensated for.
Anyway, there are far too many 'ifs" around this issue, so I think it wiser to just wait and see what happens with the new RS and to 991 GT3 values. FWIW, we'll have to agree to disagree on just what that will be.
01-22-2015, 05:11 PM
#3678
my guess is most of the 991 RS customers already own a 991 GT3. and they will be trading in their 991 GT3s when the RS arrives. in this case if 700 come to the states and half of those are upgrades from the regular 991 GT3 then you will all of a sudden have 350 extra 1-2-3 year old 991 GT3's on the market. That will hurt the value way more than any engine speculation..
anyone who races/tracks a 991 GT3 now is secretly dying inside to be the first to blow the replaced/revised engines. They are beating the **** out of this car on the track and no engines have blown since the fiasco. ZERO so no matter what engine ends up in the RS i don't think people are going to talk negatively about the 991 GT3 motor. its a beauty, its fast, fun, high revving, NON TURBO, and and can take a pounding.
just my .02, and i dont know much
anyone who races/tracks a 991 GT3 now is secretly dying inside to be the first to blow the replaced/revised engines. They are beating the **** out of this car on the track and no engines have blown since the fiasco. ZERO so no matter what engine ends up in the RS i don't think people are going to talk negatively about the 991 GT3 motor. its a beauty, its fast, fun, high revving, NON TURBO, and and can take a pounding.
just my .02, and i dont know much
GT3 has the best resale values of any car in this price range , there are no other options really. Even if it drops more than last time its better than what many other cars see (Mp4 , amg etc..)
01-22-2015, 05:44 PM
#3679
My thoughts... The news on the GT3 RS and Cayman GT4 engines is good for normally aspirated engine lovers. While the rest of the lineup is going forced induction, Porsche is keeping normal aspiration for the GT cars (for now) as we'd hoped they would.
If the new Carrera engine doesn't share its foundation with the GT3 RS that would be worrisome. It could suggest that the new architecture doesn't support larger displacements, leaving normally aspirated engines to stagnate and wither on the old platform. To achieve the desired goal of efficiency engine capacity must be reduced by about 20%, so there must have been temptation to downsize the entire engine to save size and weight. If the RS is built on the new platform we'll know that temptation has been resisted.
Given that the 4.0 liters displacement isn't required for any turbo application, it would also suggest to me a commitment to normal aspiration for some time, hopefully including competition models.
I would bet that the genesis of the new platform has much to do with the arrival of the upcoming 4 cylinder boxster/ Cayman engines. I'd bet the ancillaries, etc will all be shared to reduce costs, just as modularity and parts sharing were fundamentals behind the 9A1.
While this is good for Porsche enthusiasts, it might be less good for 991 GT3 values- I agree they'll go up as the last NA GT3, but down if it's replaced with a similar but superior .2 version as we've seen with every GT3 that's come before.
If the new Carrera engine doesn't share its foundation with the GT3 RS that would be worrisome. It could suggest that the new architecture doesn't support larger displacements, leaving normally aspirated engines to stagnate and wither on the old platform. To achieve the desired goal of efficiency engine capacity must be reduced by about 20%, so there must have been temptation to downsize the entire engine to save size and weight. If the RS is built on the new platform we'll know that temptation has been resisted.
Given that the 4.0 liters displacement isn't required for any turbo application, it would also suggest to me a commitment to normal aspiration for some time, hopefully including competition models.
I would bet that the genesis of the new platform has much to do with the arrival of the upcoming 4 cylinder boxster/ Cayman engines. I'd bet the ancillaries, etc will all be shared to reduce costs, just as modularity and parts sharing were fundamentals behind the 9A1.
While this is good for Porsche enthusiasts, it might be less good for 991 GT3 values- I agree they'll go up as the last NA GT3, but down if it's replaced with a similar but superior .2 version as we've seen with every GT3 that's come before.
01-22-2015, 05:45 PM
#3680
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I suspect the focus on what happens with RS as a driver of base GT3 values is overdone. The scarcity and increasingly divergent design briefs suggest less impact than in the past.
My guess is that what happens with the 991.2 GT3 has greater potential to impact 991.1 GT3 values. If the 991.2 GT3 sees a "new" naturally aspirated motor coupled with the normal small refinements of gen2 offerings, then I'd expect normal depreciation on 991.1, i.e., what was witnessed with the 997.1/997.2 GT3 transition prior to the 991 GT3 details leaking. On the other hand, if the 991.2 GT3 incorporates turbo and/or hybrid then I'd expect very strong price support for the 991.1 GT3 similar to what we've witnessed with recent 997 GT3 prices.
My guess is that what happens with the 991.2 GT3 has greater potential to impact 991.1 GT3 values. If the 991.2 GT3 sees a "new" naturally aspirated motor coupled with the normal small refinements of gen2 offerings, then I'd expect normal depreciation on 991.1, i.e., what was witnessed with the 997.1/997.2 GT3 transition prior to the 991 GT3 details leaking. On the other hand, if the 991.2 GT3 incorporates turbo and/or hybrid then I'd expect very strong price support for the 991.1 GT3 similar to what we've witnessed with recent 997 GT3 prices.
And I'd turn the argument of GT3 vs RS engine around. With a $50K additional cost for a car that will lap a typical track only ~1s faster, Porsche needs to justify the big cost increase, and emphasizing how 'new' the engine is could be part of that, regardless of what the actual differences in the engines will be. Many RS buyers may be wealthy enough that they don't care about another $50K, but I suspect that the average GT3 buyer does care about the $50K, so the overlap in the markets for the two cars may not be as large as some think.
And I agree with others that, in a car I plan to hammer repeatedly on the track, I'd rather have an engine which has some real world empirical evidence of being up to snuff, rather a 'brand new' engine.
01-22-2015, 05:59 PM
#3681
Race Director
the message is clear, PAG wants to distance itself from the 991 GT3 engine disaster. it could be a marketing issue or a serious engineering one, no one knows (probably a mixture of both). at this point i would not buy a 991 GT3, the value could drop dead after the new-engine-991-RS release. peter
01-22-2015, 06:41 PM
#3682
Nordschleife Master
I'll hazard a guess that most people who bought this car while spending thousands on wraps/customizing are doing pretty well financially and won't go bankrupt if they take a hit on selling/trading. So most will just enjoy it and not worry one way or another and I think that's the best way to look at this perspective about value. In the end,I don't see this GT3 taking an out of the ordinary hit on value.
At least,that's the way I'd look at it... Of course I don't have anything invested in the car,so my opinion might not matter...
At least,that's the way I'd look at it... Of course I don't have anything invested in the car,so my opinion might not matter...
01-22-2015, 07:56 PM
#3683
... which I predict will be dropping as the 991 GT3 hits the roads and tracks in large numbers and becomes increasingly coveted. Biggest objection to the 991 GT3 was the PDK, but the PDK in this car continues to convert 'manual purists' after they actually drive the car, so that doesn't leave much reason to prefer the 997 GT3 IMO. If I had a 997 GT3 which I was hanging on to for investment reasons, I'd be selling it immediately. And I'd turn the argument of GT3 vs RS engine around. With a $50K additional cost for a car that will lap a typical track only ~1s faster, Porsche needs to justify the big cost increase, and emphasizing how 'new' the engine is could be part of that, regardless of what the actual differences in the engines will be. Many RS buyers may be wealthy enough that they don't care about another $50K, but I suspect that the average GT3 buyer does care about the $50K, so the overlap in the markets for the two cars may not be as large as some think. And I agree with others that, in a car I plan to hammer repeatedly on the track, I'd rather have an engine which has some real world empirical evidence of being up to snuff, rather a 'brand new' engine.
2. I don't think anyone buys a gt3 as an investment. But always nice to be able to enjoy your car and not end up in the turbo depreciation league. RS is different!
3. If you can afford a 150k car chances are you can afford a 200k car!
I agree that I much rather have a proven engine than a brand new one.
01-22-2015, 08:09 PM
#3684
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1.Nah, the 7.3 should have dropped if that would have been the case! 1.3 has been around long enough for people to see how brilliant it is!
2. I don't think anyone buys a gt3 as an investment. But always nice to be able to enjoy your car and not end up in the turbo depreciation league. RS is different!
3. If you can afford a 150k car chances are you can afford a 200k car!
I agree that I much rather have a proven engine than a brand new one.
2. I don't think anyone buys a gt3 as an investment. But always nice to be able to enjoy your car and not end up in the turbo depreciation league. RS is different!
3. If you can afford a 150k car chances are you can afford a 200k car!
I agree that I much rather have a proven engine than a brand new one.
2. Some do, but I agree that most don't.
3. Agree, but I still think the buyer of the RS will be significantly more well heeled, on average.
01-22-2015, 08:56 PM
#3686
So the new RS has a pit lane speed limiter. That's needed, no? If it has a drink button on the steering wheel, then I'm in.
Seriously, the car sounds like a track weapon, but the gimmicks are getting more outrageous. It seems that Porsche is following this eccentric market line.
Engine aside, there is more reason to believe that each generation of GT3s, are becoming less raw.
Seriously, the car sounds like a track weapon, but the gimmicks are getting more outrageous. It seems that Porsche is following this eccentric market line.
Engine aside, there is more reason to believe that each generation of GT3s, are becoming less raw.
01-22-2015, 09:18 PM
#3687
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01-22-2015, 09:35 PM
#3689
Burning Brakes
Many of us have to decide how much $$$ we are willing to risk in case of a track incident. I for one am skittish now, at the current GT-3 cost level. Thinking about risking $200 plus is beyond my personal tolerance. That is the reason I sold my 4.0. it became to valuable to run on track. Allan
01-22-2015, 09:40 PM
#3690
Not found a use for regular launch control frankly, could see it in a race, but have a different car for that...