GT3 production delays.... again!
10-17-2013, 08:17 PM
#361
Race Director
^ For that use, I think any 911, Cayman, or Boxster is ample, and of course at much lower cost than the 991 GT3, and generally more comfort on the street. I look at it the other way, seems crazy to me to get a car with that capability and demeanor but drive it mainly on the street - like putting a stallion in a pigpen.
Will it be frustrating sometimes to drive the 991 GT3 on the street? Sure. But no more so than a Ferrari, Lambo, Vette, or any of the previous GT3 iterations, and while some owners of those cars may track 50 times a year, I suspect many more drive and enjoy their cars they same way I plan to drive and enjoy my 991 GT3.
I should qualify my "crazy" comment. If someone can afford the financial and psychic toll, I think it's great to buy and essentially "use up" a really expensive street car with heavy track use. But I'd personally be uncomfortable doing it.
10-17-2013, 08:23 PM
#362
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I don't mind using up an expensivish Porsche on the track, since that's what I think it's meant for, but wrecking it would be more heartbreaking, even with the protection of insurance. I recently saw a beautiful 997.2 RS badly mangled at the track after flipping at high speed - fortunately the driver was OK.
10-17-2013, 08:24 PM
#363
Drifting
1
-Before the hairychesters start saying that the car wasn't being pushed hard enough, I will challenge ANYONE here to run 1:38 at Laguna Seca, 1:49 at Sonoma Raceway, and 1:59 at Thunderhill in a boxster and tell me that the car wasn't being driven at the limits, because that is what this driver and his car does. Anyone?
.
-Before the hairychesters start saying that the car wasn't being pushed hard enough, I will challenge ANYONE here to run 1:38 at Laguna Seca, 1:49 at Sonoma Raceway, and 1:59 at Thunderhill in a boxster and tell me that the car wasn't being driven at the limits, because that is what this driver and his car does. Anyone?
.
... anyways carry on.
10-17-2013, 08:32 PM
#365
Race Director
I don't mind using up an expensivish Porsche on the track, since that's what I think it's meant for, but wrecking it would be more heartbreaking, even with the protection of insurance. I recently saw a beautiful 997.2 RS badly mangled at the track after flipping at high speed - fortunately the driver was OK.
Different strokes....
10-17-2013, 08:48 PM
#366
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Sure, though we each have different levels of tolerance for not only what constitutes "expensivish", but how much "using up" you might want to do on a car you plan to keep for a long while. And as you point out, the risk of doing heartbreaking damage on track is more of an issue for some than others.
Different strokes....
Different strokes....
10-17-2013, 09:51 PM
#367
Rennlist Member
10-18-2013, 05:54 PM
#369
Rennlist Member
Does not being able to finish a session due to engine overheating or not being able to finish a weekend due to brakes overheating count as failure (despite rigorous maintenance, repairs, and replacements)?
I've had students with non-Porsches in lower groups struggle to make it through a day because of various sorts of distress due to the cars simply not being able handle the track use, even at that level. Dial up the level and the car has to be correspondingly tougher (ie, engineered for the track, thus way overengineered for the street). Do 50ish track days a year at a relatively high level and maybe a GT3 is what's needed. Yes, a non-GT3 Porsche can be beefed up for track use (eg, I have oil pan extension/baffle in mine), but eventually that's not cost-effective and it's better to get a car built for the track in the first place.
I've had students with non-Porsches in lower groups struggle to make it through a day because of various sorts of distress due to the cars simply not being able handle the track use, even at that level. Dial up the level and the car has to be correspondingly tougher (ie, engineered for the track, thus way overengineered for the street). Do 50ish track days a year at a relatively high level and maybe a GT3 is what's needed. Yes, a non-GT3 Porsche can be beefed up for track use (eg, I have oil pan extension/baffle in mine), but eventually that's not cost-effective and it's better to get a car built for the track in the first place.
Having gone down the slippery slope of transforming a sporty street car into a track worthy car, I completely agree. Brakes, cooling, and lubrication in most cars need a lot of attention to get them usable on track, especially once you move to DOT R rubber.
Then of course, while you are at it, it's tempting to upgrade other parts to go faster, mainly suspension. Eventually you end up with a frankencar.
The beauty of the GT3 (historically) is that the rig comes from the factory ready to roll at the track. MUCH better engineering in critical systems than what most shadetree mechanics will bolt onto their bmw/audi/miata/vette etc.
Then of course, while you are at it, it's tempting to upgrade other parts to go faster, mainly suspension. Eventually you end up with a frankencar.
The beauty of the GT3 (historically) is that the rig comes from the factory ready to roll at the track. MUCH better engineering in critical systems than what most shadetree mechanics will bolt onto their bmw/audi/miata/vette etc.
From my perspective, whether a 991 GT3 will stand up to it or not, spending $150K+ on a new car that you plan to thrash for 50 track days a year is just crazy. Maybe it works for those with a LOT more disposable income than I have, but I can't relate to the concept.
I see the GT3, both now and in the past, as a street car that can be driven back and forth to the track, and used there with confidence once or twice a month during the season. It can also be enjoyed on public roads when desired. I fully expect that the 991 GT3 will be completely suitable for that kind of use. Again, regardless of whether the 991 GT3, or any car over $100K will hold up to abuse above and beyond that or not, I would be considering other options for 50 track days a year. Just my $.02.
I see the GT3, both now and in the past, as a street car that can be driven back and forth to the track, and used there with confidence once or twice a month during the season. It can also be enjoyed on public roads when desired. I fully expect that the 991 GT3 will be completely suitable for that kind of use. Again, regardless of whether the 991 GT3, or any car over $100K will hold up to abuse above and beyond that or not, I would be considering other options for 50 track days a year. Just my $.02.
And to our difference of use I say Porsche is playing a dangerous game because for your use there are a ton of options outside of Porsches.
1) Tracking a 50 days a year is not unheard of. I don't see why it would be crazy to do so in a GT3 as long as the owner understands that kind of usage needs the proper upkeep.
2) The 997 GT3 was a great car, but let's not put that pu**y on a pedestal, so to speak. That car had it's share of problems, just like any other car. To say otherwise, you are basically burying your head in the sand. The 991 GT3 WILL have it's share of problems too. Again, just like any other car.
3) The 997 GT3 is not the only car capable of handling track abuse. I will cite one boxster spyder here in norcal that has indeed done 50 track days in a year, and continues to push on. The car has done just fine, and it uses an 'unproven by motorsports' 9A1 engine.
-Before the obligatory naysayer open their mouths, this boxster spyder is stock with the exception of track pads, alignment, and tires.
-Before the hairychesters start saying that the car wasn't being pushed hard enough, I will challenge ANYONE here to run 1:38 at Laguna Seca, 1:49 at Sonoma Raceway, and 1:59 at Thunderhill in a boxster and tell me that the car wasn't being driven at the limits, because that is what this driver and his car does. Anyone?
-Before the Floridians say that Norcal tracks are not 'hard' enough on car, I call BS. Sebring is not the only race track in the United States that is a legitimate track. MRLS, Sonoma, and Thill are world class, and are legitimate tracks to prove the durability of car.
2) The 997 GT3 was a great car, but let's not put that pu**y on a pedestal, so to speak. That car had it's share of problems, just like any other car. To say otherwise, you are basically burying your head in the sand. The 991 GT3 WILL have it's share of problems too. Again, just like any other car.
3) The 997 GT3 is not the only car capable of handling track abuse. I will cite one boxster spyder here in norcal that has indeed done 50 track days in a year, and continues to push on. The car has done just fine, and it uses an 'unproven by motorsports' 9A1 engine.
-Before the obligatory naysayer open their mouths, this boxster spyder is stock with the exception of track pads, alignment, and tires.
-Before the hairychesters start saying that the car wasn't being pushed hard enough, I will challenge ANYONE here to run 1:38 at Laguna Seca, 1:49 at Sonoma Raceway, and 1:59 at Thunderhill in a boxster and tell me that the car wasn't being driven at the limits, because that is what this driver and his car does. Anyone?
-Before the Floridians say that Norcal tracks are not 'hard' enough on car, I call BS. Sebring is not the only race track in the United States that is a legitimate track. MRLS, Sonoma, and Thill are world class, and are legitimate tracks to prove the durability of car.
One thing about using up, though, is that you can keep a car going a long time and in good shape if you replace parts and do engine rebuilds. As far as expensivish, a 991 GT3 with minimal options (~$135K) is the max I can fathom spending on a track car, and I'd need to pay for insurance since writing it off due to a wreck would be too much.
10-18-2013, 07:12 PM
#370
Race Director
Color? Well, that's just hopeless....:-)
10-18-2013, 08:12 PM
#371
Rennlist Member
Haha,
Reds wrong.
Another way to look at it; I may buy a racecar and then occasionally take my street car to the track. There are maybe 5 cars to chose from that will even survive the first weekend with just pads and fluid.
2 cars, race cars are not cheap and have no warranty. All they have going for them is safety.
Or i just won't have the time to go to the track much, if at all like this year, again there are a handful of cars that will do the job.
What happens if I than do have free time and start hitting the track? GT3's always have been a "sure thing" and like you say maybe this one will be as well but this test does not add to confidence.
How do I setup the car to handle well and not kill the 20" tires with RWS? Will I like PDK? Will the engine hold?
And what's most bothersome is that the car would be a gem without these gimmicks for lap time that don't really seem to make it faster, notwithstanding marketing claims and hype.
So do I buy a CUP and used CPO 997? Or wait for the 991 to hit the track?
I like new car warranty.
I like race car safety.
Reds wrong.
Another way to look at it; I may buy a racecar and then occasionally take my street car to the track. There are maybe 5 cars to chose from that will even survive the first weekend with just pads and fluid.
2 cars, race cars are not cheap and have no warranty. All they have going for them is safety.
Or i just won't have the time to go to the track much, if at all like this year, again there are a handful of cars that will do the job.
What happens if I than do have free time and start hitting the track? GT3's always have been a "sure thing" and like you say maybe this one will be as well but this test does not add to confidence.
How do I setup the car to handle well and not kill the 20" tires with RWS? Will I like PDK? Will the engine hold?
And what's most bothersome is that the car would be a gem without these gimmicks for lap time that don't really seem to make it faster, notwithstanding marketing claims and hype.
So do I buy a CUP and used CPO 997? Or wait for the 991 to hit the track?
I like new car warranty.
I like race car safety.
10-23-2013, 09:16 AM
#374
10-23-2013, 09:32 AM
#375
