We're returning to the crux of the matter now. What constitutes serious (non-racing) track use, and what cars can handle it? Clearly, plenty of people are doing around 50 days a year, driving hard, year after year, and that's my personal benchmark.

And with some care, past GT3s have been able to handle that, perhaps better than any other car. Other Porsches, out of the box (with track pads, brake fluid, tires, etc.), maybe not (no for the Cayman R, too early for me to say with the 997.1 C2S). Question now is whether the 991 GT3 can handle it. I hope so, but I think it's too uncertain, especially until we have answers as to what's currently going on that's holding up production.


PS - Cayman R also needed an extra radiator installed due to overheating on warmer days. Couldn't make it through a 20-min session without having to slow way down or pit in.

 

it is a wrong approach to begin with. it is not about 'can handle', it is 'what is the mean time between failures'.
every car no matter what build should be maintained and an appropriate schedule for repairs and replacements of parts subjected to wear and tear should be observed. there are rules, sanctioning bodies, all this info if readily available for any kinds of cars that participate in racing series.

 

Macca: Sport Auto Supertest time for the 991 GT3: 1:09.6 Hockenheim (compared to 1,10.4 for 997 GT3 3.8 and 1,09.6 for 997.2 GT3RS)

 

Does not being able to finish a session due to engine overheating or not being able to finish a weekend due to brakes overheating count as failure (despite rigorous maintenance, repairs, and replacements)?

I've had students with non-Porsches in lower groups struggle to make it through a day because of various sorts of distress due to the cars simply not being able handle the track use, even at that level. Dial up the level and the car has to be correspondingly tougher (ie, engineered for the track, thus way overengineered for the street). Do 50ish track days a year at a relatively high level and maybe a GT3 is what's needed. Yes, a non-GT3 Porsche can be beefed up for track use (eg, I have oil pan extension/baffle in mine), but eventually that's not cost-effective and it's better to get a car built for the track in the first place.

 

Having gone down the slippery slope of transforming a sporty street car into a track worthy car, I completely agree. Brakes, cooling, and lubrication in most cars need a lot of attention to get them usable on track, especially once you move to DOT R rubber.

Then of course, while you are at it, it's tempting to upgrade other parts to go faster, mainly suspension. Eventually you end up with a frankencar.

The beauty of the GT3 (historically) is that the rig comes from the factory ready to roll at the track. MUCH better engineering in critical systems than what most shadetree mechanics will bolt onto their bmw/audi/miata/vette etc.

 

Perhaps these 'production delays' are related to trying to adapt a street car engine instead of using a race-proven engine? Seems I heard those complaints many months ago.

The fact remains - virtually all of the 991 GT3 is newly designed. And unproven in real life - on both the street and track. Don't worry, the beta testers will get their cars by the end of the year.

I hope mine is delayed enough to see if there are any immediate issues.

 

From my perspective, whether a 991 GT3 will stand up to it or not, spending $150K+ on a new car that you plan to thrash for 50 track days a year is just crazy. Maybe it works for those with a LOT more disposable income than I have, but I can't relate to the concept.

I see the GT3, both now and in the past, as a street car that can be driven back and forth to the track, and used there with confidence once or twice a month during the season. It can also be enjoyed on public roads when desired. I fully expect that the 991 GT3 will be completely suitable for that kind of use. Again, regardless of whether the 991 GT3, or any car over $100K will hold up to abuse above and beyond that or not, I would be considering other options for 50 track days a year. Just my $.02.

 

^ For that use, I think any 911, Cayman, or Boxster is ample, and of course at much lower cost than the 991 GT3, and generally more comfort on the street. I look at it the other way, seems crazy to me to get a car with that capability and demeanor but drive it mainly on the street - like putting a stallion in a pigpen.

 

Yeah, I think there's an inflection point where it makes more sense to move to a dedicated, fully built track car for zealous track use. Once you drive a fully prepped rig like a cup car the street car feels ponderous, compromised, heavy and slow. So, to me, the GT3 is exactly as Mike mentions. A badass street car that is perfectly at home on the track once a month. Exactly how I would use it.

I hope we learn the true nature of the defect being addressed by PAG and how they are fixing that defect. If indeed various press cars have thrown rods, I wonder if that's an oiling problem. . . which I suspect would not be an easy fix. If there really is an engine problem, I would have guessed it stems from the brand new valvetrain.

 

Meh. Have you driven the 991 or the new Cayman or Boxster? While engineering marvels, they are not intense enough (for me).

 

1) Tracking a 50 days a year is not unheard of. I don't see why it would be crazy to do so in a GT3 as long as the owner understands that kind of usage needs the proper upkeep.

2) The 997 GT3 was a great car, but let's not put that pu**y on a pedestal, so to speak. That car had it's share of problems, just like any other car. To say otherwise, you are basically burying your head in the sand. The 991 GT3 WILL have it's share of problems too. Again, just like any other car.

3) The 997 GT3 is not the only car capable of handling track abuse. I will cite one boxster spyder here in norcal that has indeed done 50 track days in a year, and continues to push on. The car has done just fine, and it uses an 'unproven by motorsports' 9A1 engine.

-Before the obligatory naysayer open their mouths, this boxster spyder is stock with the exception of track pads, alignment, and tires.

-Before the hairychesters start saying that the car wasn't being pushed hard enough, I will challenge ANYONE here to run 1:38 at Laguna Seca, 1:49 at Sonoma Raceway, and 1:59 at Thunderhill in a boxster and tell me that the car wasn't being driven at the limits, because that is what this driver and his car does. Anyone?

-Before the Floridians say that Norcal tracks are not 'hard' enough on car, I call BS. Sebring is not the only race track in the United States that is a legitimate track. MRLS, Sonoma, and Thill are world class, and are legitimate tracks to prove the durability of car.

 

Agreed, have driven them all, and I enjoy the 997 more than 991, old Cayman more than new Cayman, old Boxster more than new Boxster. I'd generally prefer a 997 GT3 over 991 GT3, but will need to see prices drop considerably (which may not happen).

 

Joe you never added the 3rd radiator? I didn't make it through one session without overheating. Of course, it's hot as hell down here in the desert.

 

I did because I was paranoid about the rise in water and oil temps I was getting on warmer days. I've never gone into ECU limp mode, and didn't want to.

This particular car I am talking about is not mine and has a PDK transmission, so it comes with a 3rd radiator from the factory. These cars actually run even hotter than our manual cars with only 2 radiators. He drives through the elevated coolant and oil temps. The only time he has to stop is when the car goes into limp mode from what the ECU considers excessive heat, which occurred during a 107F day.

 

Yes. Today I was advised that my delivery date has been pushed back to March 23, 2014 from the original date of Feb.13, 2014. I suspect that date will change with further delays.