Macca

Katching! So that's 15K in suspension upgrades/labour since you bought the 993. Smart money though in terms of going fast.

Paul and I have a very similar suspension architecture now with key performance difference between our cars being LSD & weight (50-60Kg).

Macca

Not sure how you are so light Paul. The factory figure of 1370kg with full gas was notoriously optimistic.

I am realistically now around 1330 kg. It was 1300 kg last year with half tank but then we added half cage and just now big brake upgrade (18kg+10kg).

So the weight difference between our two cars is around 34kg - about the same as swapping out the seats.

Quite honestly John anything less than 100kg in a road car is fairly negligible and an improved camber and tyre temp management system between two identical cars with identical drivers probably make a bigger difference IMO. Weight is probably more beneficial in handling in teh tight stuff. Paul and I found on the SITT my car wouldn't even be a car length ahead at the end of a decent straight for its 35kg and 10bhp advantage - certainly not like being overtaken by a 400 bhp 6.2 GT3 down the straight LOL!

Macca

Thanks mate very kind. Im quite confident the MX72 will be a big improvement over factory pads. Hopefully fairly quiet around town. When the fronts are worn (hopefully not to quickly at $400! a set) Ill replace with the ME20. Sounds like a plan...

John McM

About 6 months ago I weighed Herman at Waitakere Refuse Station (city council owned so it didn't cost a cent). The weight with full tank and me was 1,475 kg. I didn't weigh myself afterwards but you can figure about 100kg at least after a good breakfast, possibly 105kg.

At the time I had the Recaro seat, no passenger seat and Fuchs with Z221s. No spare wheel, no tools, jack or trunk carpet.

The Frankenstein D90s are about 7kg heavier. I think I took out the seat backs after the weigh in.

What I can't work out is how a 964 C4 can be at the same weight as a C2, if not lighter considering I had a full tank.

Macca

John. Factory numbers were all over the place. For some cars like base carrera they often didnt include any options (that means air con or sunroof) and for other models like Turbo and C4S they often included everything.

The reality is I suspect the only difference between a C2 and C4 are the transmission gubbins and Id say the maximum deviation for identical spec c2/c4 would be 50-70kg. After that its a matter of whats been changed and what the inital spec was. My car was around $1385kg from the factory with full tank (factory quoted 1370). Once I added FE, stereo upgrade, larger wheels, HID light modules, some other electronics upgrades its was around 1410. To get it from there to 1300kg was a real challenge - and then it got 28kg fatter recently in the name of track performance/safety!

What you need is to drop into a race shop and get it measure like below so you can determine the weight F to R axle and side to side for corner balancing etc. Its far more accurate. For these sessions I always left spare, jack and toolkit in the car as it would have been weighed from factory.

John McM

Race on Sunday, commute on Monday. Seven weeks until the next Sprints. Definitely time to look at some aggressive pads.

Will see what the lead time and cost is on ME20. Front pads look very tired from what I can see. Will pull them on the weekend, but I suspect they have cracks. Back pads are pristine. Lola has a brake pedal feel like a rock. Herman is more progressive. Definitely improvements to make there.

kiwi 911

Errr.......not really,..............it's half a 944 race car when I read it

kiwi 911

My car is a very base model spec, other than sunroof and aircon - has not got any extra's like cruise control etc.

Macca

John if the car is also your daily driver then consider the mx72. Pete found these quiet for the bulk of their life. They aren't as outright aggressive as the me20 but they should be quieter and they cost the same around 400. If you are barely wearing your rears you probably don't want to over bias your fronts unless you can manually change the rear valving. In the 993 C2 you can't do this which is why you use the larger piston RS rear calipers when upgrading brakes. Conventional wisdom says you then use a more aggressive pad up front to alter bias although in the first instance I've chosen to stick with the same pad all round till I get the feel for more rear braking which with the LSD should provide plenty of stability under brakes at the end of the straights. Alternately throw me20 or me22 on your rear and mx72 on your fronts to bring back some rear bias.

Doug. I have a pair of 2 piston 993 rear calipers in good condition you could buy for your C2 and gave Steve make up the adaptor plates. You can have them cheap if you want them just PM me....

996tnz

Paul, classic observation. Having far too much time on my hands after the second (and last) run, I checked out some shots on that camera. Similar cornering shot of me looming up behind Mack's 997 GT3 is my favourite as I'd caught up to the pair dicing in front, and as he commented afterwards "that's not supposed to happen". Couldn't get past but.

John, congrats on smashing your 1:20 hoodoo but I'm counting your spin cherry intact until you do a proper 360. Top entertainment though! The 2WD guys can correct me but if it happens again, but some quick counter steer and a dash of throttle are likely to be your friend in keeping it on track.

Still can't believe how lucky we all are to be out there doing this stuff.

Macca

The good things in life are rarely free :-)

Your car spec similar to mine out of the box. Add 16 kg for full tank and you would be 1380kg. I found you can save 5-8 kg here and there easy then you add LSD, 18 wheels and the recommended strenthening brace etc etc and suddenly all they weight you fought to save us gone. Half cafe was costly in additional weight as were brakes which is why they have questionable outright performance benefits mainly safety and durability....

John McM

Correct, 360 cherry still intact.

I looked at my AIM traces and I think I know what happened. First thing is that my speed at turn 3 was 96km/hr as opposed to 90km/hr when I broke 1.20. That puts me 500rpm higher in the peak torque band. Secondly I was trying to hug the corner. Put those together and you have a recipe for a more loaded car going over what is actually a reasonable hump. Back end lifts and it's all over. Not sure I had the margin to counter steer and throttle. I might have speared off the other side of the track.

Anyway lesson learned.

peterC2S

Macca - the cone on the straight was marking the 'start' position I think. Because of teh timing gear they moved it back from the usual 1-2 grid.

Either of those - it was a lot of fun - that last session particularly!

Update from me. I loved the MX72 on the C4 initially but for trackdays I found they wore out v. quick. I bought the ME20s but then never used them on the C4. Have run them consistently on the 944 and v little squeal if any. However now finding that we are wearing these out faster than expected. Ran 2 trackdays @ Puke plus the 3 hour enduro and the fronts were completely toasted and crumbling round the edges. Rears still like new. Steve hated them during the enduro. I had one moment when I ran out of brakes at the end of the back straight but pulled up just in time - had to let them cool a bit over the next couple of laps and they came back fine. We may be going Pagid yellow for the next one in Taupo - my problem is I don't have a frame of reference for comparison. Steve does so I will trust him and report back after having tried them.

I thought the same when I saw John's clip (speaking from experience having spun at the same point in both C4 and 944...!) The first time the camera catches the rear of John's car the brakes are on and stay that way through the clip. Your reflexes have to be sharp to catch it in time but the biggest factor for avoiding spins since has been getting back on the gas and a quick stab of throttle as Walter suggests. With the C4 (any 911) you've got to sit that back end down again as quick as possible.

peterC2S

Chris B - you are vindicated! http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/3120567

For some reason the overall results have not picked up the last sprint rounds even though they were published individually. Lucky we don't take it too seriously eh?

John McM

And the second lesson from yesterday, "to finish first, first you have to finish". A DNS in one session due to a hydraulic pressure alert put paid to a first place. Congrats Doug. It appears that fastest lap is all I can defend on 3/8.