Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
05-30-2014, 09:13 PM
Rennlist Member
@ Doug - today was only only window of opportunity 
@ Jake - just took Herman around the bays. Aircooled - there is no substitute. I'll make a prediction that at some stage in the next couple of years the 964/993 price gap will not exist for comparable models.
@ Jake - just took Herman around the bays. Aircooled - there is no substitute. I'll make a prediction that at some stage in the next couple of years the 964/993 price gap will not exist for comparable models.
05-30-2014, 09:50 PM
Rennlist Member
John. I dont disagree. Total series run production numbers were within 10% of each other and they ran for a similar length production period. There are a similar number of production variances.
The 964 has the advantage I feel of appealing to wider group of buyer, especially with recent trends showing younger buyers are now considering it. I think the 964 appeals to an older buyer base much more strongly than the 993.
I was in living London in 1993 when the 993 was released. Up until that time I had respected Porsches for their performance and competition legacy but I thought they all looked out dated. The Yuppie stigma of 1987 was still strong in London - especially in the area where I was living (Putney), so there were many unloved 3.2s knocking around. The 964 had been around for a few years but it just reminded me of the old cars and it never really caught my eye.
I saw my first 993 a few weeks after they started arriving in the UK in late 1993. I remember the first one I saw just off Kings Road and I did a double take. I was on a bus and got off the next stop and walked up this side street and spent 10 minutes going over the details. It was the most gorgeous 911 I had ever seen and a convincingly modern re interpretation of the theme. I fell in love instantly. My first Porsche was a 993. My last Porsche will be a 993.
Something very interesting beyond generation appeal of the 993 and later design cues is that the 993 still looks as fresh as it did in 1993 at the August Earls Court Motor show. I frequently get asked (well I used to when the paint was sparking!) if my car is new! The 993 design signature was reinstated in the company genes again for the 997 remake and has carried forward. Like the Cup 2 alloys that launched with it I believe the design will become totally ageless. The 993 hasnt had its day yet. It will eventually be recognised for its design integrity as a unique signature that dictated the flow of pen for another two decades of PAG designers. Its something unique of itself in this way not a recent fad or reprisal in retro design cues from the past.
However it takes time for these things to happen. Its like the Barcelona Chair vs a Queen Anne. Both are timeless. However one is considered "contemporary". When you discovered it was designed in the 1940s your jaw drops. The Queen Anne wasnt prevalent that long before in reality. Its a matter of personal taste of course. The prices can be surprising too (a very early Barcelona with horse hair cushion can fetch 30-40K). Queen Annes can be worth more for rare examples. I appreciate both designs however personal taste dictates that I will only put a Barcelona in my house (I own a very nice "pre mass reproduction" example but unfortunately with a more modern squab - original long worn out).
I believe the 964s will ride the recent air Kooled price appreciation wave better than the 993 which is still considered " modern" but not yet "contemporary". Mechanically they are very similar cars, age wise as time goes on they are basically the same age and they were sold for almost identical money in their day. However when that market cools down and then perhaps a few years later when the 911 morphs into yet another major generational leap you will find the 993 becomes a strong investment. When the generation they affected at their launch starts to get into their early/mid 50s, wealthier more successful and the contemporary design cues and signature are started to be talked about they will start strong but long ascent value wise Im predicting. It will start within the next 5-7 years.
None of this matters to someone who has owned their car almost 14 years and hopes to own it another 40 of course. Its interesting however non the less. Be fascinating to dig this post up in a decade and see whether it was on the mark or not....
The 964 has the advantage I feel of appealing to wider group of buyer, especially with recent trends showing younger buyers are now considering it. I think the 964 appeals to an older buyer base much more strongly than the 993.
I was in living London in 1993 when the 993 was released. Up until that time I had respected Porsches for their performance and competition legacy but I thought they all looked out dated. The Yuppie stigma of 1987 was still strong in London - especially in the area where I was living (Putney), so there were many unloved 3.2s knocking around. The 964 had been around for a few years but it just reminded me of the old cars and it never really caught my eye.
I saw my first 993 a few weeks after they started arriving in the UK in late 1993. I remember the first one I saw just off Kings Road and I did a double take. I was on a bus and got off the next stop and walked up this side street and spent 10 minutes going over the details. It was the most gorgeous 911 I had ever seen and a convincingly modern re interpretation of the theme. I fell in love instantly. My first Porsche was a 993. My last Porsche will be a 993.
Something very interesting beyond generation appeal of the 993 and later design cues is that the 993 still looks as fresh as it did in 1993 at the August Earls Court Motor show. I frequently get asked (well I used to when the paint was sparking!) if my car is new! The 993 design signature was reinstated in the company genes again for the 997 remake and has carried forward. Like the Cup 2 alloys that launched with it I believe the design will become totally ageless. The 993 hasnt had its day yet. It will eventually be recognised for its design integrity as a unique signature that dictated the flow of pen for another two decades of PAG designers. Its something unique of itself in this way not a recent fad or reprisal in retro design cues from the past.
However it takes time for these things to happen. Its like the Barcelona Chair vs a Queen Anne. Both are timeless. However one is considered "contemporary". When you discovered it was designed in the 1940s your jaw drops. The Queen Anne wasnt prevalent that long before in reality. Its a matter of personal taste of course. The prices can be surprising too (a very early Barcelona with horse hair cushion can fetch 30-40K). Queen Annes can be worth more for rare examples. I appreciate both designs however personal taste dictates that I will only put a Barcelona in my house (I own a very nice "pre mass reproduction" example but unfortunately with a more modern squab - original long worn out).
I believe the 964s will ride the recent air Kooled price appreciation wave better than the 993 which is still considered " modern" but not yet "contemporary". Mechanically they are very similar cars, age wise as time goes on they are basically the same age and they were sold for almost identical money in their day. However when that market cools down and then perhaps a few years later when the 911 morphs into yet another major generational leap you will find the 993 becomes a strong investment. When the generation they affected at their launch starts to get into their early/mid 50s, wealthier more successful and the contemporary design cues and signature are started to be talked about they will start strong but long ascent value wise Im predicting. It will start within the next 5-7 years.
None of this matters to someone who has owned their car almost 14 years and hopes to own it another 40 of course. Its interesting however non the less. Be fascinating to dig this post up in a decade and see whether it was on the mark or not....
05-30-2014, 10:14 PM
Rennlist Member
Ive started talking with Rothsport again. Its been a conversation taking place over the last year or more. Very interesting to work through with them the development of their engines, over time they learn things, improve or change. My engine isnt a near term likely project (just has the covers pulled off, the timing is perfect and weve set the valve clearances fresh and replaced the plus with a fresh set (they didnt need it yet but whilst in there etc). Engine seems in fine health.
However Ive started to think about the "ultimate" engine for this car. Its been reallly good doing all this track work lately as its given me an understanding of what I want in an engine. My position on this has evolved from days of fast weekend runs, through to Targa Tour and Track work so its maturing as time progresses and this seems a much better approach than just jumping in. Lots of lessons learned from last time around.
heres an excerpt from a recent exachange with Jeff & Scott at Rothsport.
First and foremost. I live Downunder. This means number one priority is durability and longevity. I have to be able to maintain it locally and I don’t have access here to the vast experience folk like yourself, Jeff, Steve Weiner, Geoff Ring and Colin Belton.
Number two. It must run on pump fuel. 98 RON (approx. 93 MON).
Number three. The car must retain some heat (we don’t get snow or anything like that where I live so it doesn’t have to be a sauna inside or anything) and air con (it does get warm in summer).
Number four. Im targeting ideally a minimum config that will yield approx. 370 bhp for 300 lbft on the engine dyno would be acceptable. Capacity would be 3.8-3.9L I suspect. In terms of redline Ive considered this very closely. With my current gearset and the anticipated thrust from this engine I would need ideally a 7600 min rev limit for the tracks I participate on. Currently I have 7000 and it’s a fine line on some corners. With the added torque of your engine I suspect Id be short shifting at 7000 most of the time but on these low geared corners would probably run it out to 7400. The tracks are short here typically 2-3 miles but often with big elevation changes and quite a few low gear (2nd & 3rd) corners.
Lastly. I don’t need a 120 hr race engine. I need a good strong platform with some of your little tweaks and proprietary advantages built in. For example I think the CUP intake manifold, equal length headers, ITBs and a reliable piston/rod set would be a good start. My existing crank may need some bearing journals and the oil pump reconditioned but I don’t think there is a need here personally to go too crazy with new billet/GT3 crankshafts and oil pumps etc unless the exiting componentry is on the way out or not possible to recondition for reliability. Obviously we would need new case studs and I suspect you would windage the crank case while it was apart. For heads, valvetrain, springs and Cam I would largely leave that up you’re your good selves but would envisage some Ti retainers, stronger springs, ported heads with perhaps enlarged intake valves and ports and a bespoke cam profile (probably up to 2.0mm lift) but one you’ve worked with and know will not create issue with cold idle and works with the torque of the engine to produce a nice curve on the dyno traces. I like the GT3 centre muffler exhaust. It would run M84 Motec to facilitate live final dyno mapping via internet connection between USA and NZ.
Here is an example of an engine they built some time back which has proven to be very reliable on the track. Her name is Claudia, she is a 3.6 and she runs in Kais infamous RL 964 track car. You can see some of his incase telemtry online and its fascinating watching him overtake GT3s and reel in Cup cars slowly. Hes a very good driver and has a nicely developed chassis. His engine makes approximately 355 bhp for 290lbft (its still a 3.6 and its not a totally exotic build with Rothsport sliders, CF intake manifold or 3.9L capacity increase). It runs ITB under that Cup manifold. It does have however one of the flatest torque curves Ive ever seen in a 3.6-3.8 flat six. Im thinking something along these lines but with 3.85L capacity for greater torque and a bit more HP plus longevity.
Im starting a Vanuatu registered charity to pay for it!
However Ive started to think about the "ultimate" engine for this car. Its been reallly good doing all this track work lately as its given me an understanding of what I want in an engine. My position on this has evolved from days of fast weekend runs, through to Targa Tour and Track work so its maturing as time progresses and this seems a much better approach than just jumping in. Lots of lessons learned from last time around.
heres an excerpt from a recent exachange with Jeff & Scott at Rothsport.
First and foremost. I live Downunder. This means number one priority is durability and longevity. I have to be able to maintain it locally and I don’t have access here to the vast experience folk like yourself, Jeff, Steve Weiner, Geoff Ring and Colin Belton.
Number two. It must run on pump fuel. 98 RON (approx. 93 MON).
Number three. The car must retain some heat (we don’t get snow or anything like that where I live so it doesn’t have to be a sauna inside or anything) and air con (it does get warm in summer).
Number four. Im targeting ideally a minimum config that will yield approx. 370 bhp for 300 lbft on the engine dyno would be acceptable. Capacity would be 3.8-3.9L I suspect. In terms of redline Ive considered this very closely. With my current gearset and the anticipated thrust from this engine I would need ideally a 7600 min rev limit for the tracks I participate on. Currently I have 7000 and it’s a fine line on some corners. With the added torque of your engine I suspect Id be short shifting at 7000 most of the time but on these low geared corners would probably run it out to 7400. The tracks are short here typically 2-3 miles but often with big elevation changes and quite a few low gear (2nd & 3rd) corners.
Lastly. I don’t need a 120 hr race engine. I need a good strong platform with some of your little tweaks and proprietary advantages built in. For example I think the CUP intake manifold, equal length headers, ITBs and a reliable piston/rod set would be a good start. My existing crank may need some bearing journals and the oil pump reconditioned but I don’t think there is a need here personally to go too crazy with new billet/GT3 crankshafts and oil pumps etc unless the exiting componentry is on the way out or not possible to recondition for reliability. Obviously we would need new case studs and I suspect you would windage the crank case while it was apart. For heads, valvetrain, springs and Cam I would largely leave that up you’re your good selves but would envisage some Ti retainers, stronger springs, ported heads with perhaps enlarged intake valves and ports and a bespoke cam profile (probably up to 2.0mm lift) but one you’ve worked with and know will not create issue with cold idle and works with the torque of the engine to produce a nice curve on the dyno traces. I like the GT3 centre muffler exhaust. It would run M84 Motec to facilitate live final dyno mapping via internet connection between USA and NZ.
Here is an example of an engine they built some time back which has proven to be very reliable on the track. Her name is Claudia, she is a 3.6 and she runs in Kais infamous RL 964 track car. You can see some of his incase telemtry online and its fascinating watching him overtake GT3s and reel in Cup cars slowly. Hes a very good driver and has a nicely developed chassis. His engine makes approximately 355 bhp for 290lbft (its still a 3.6 and its not a totally exotic build with Rothsport sliders, CF intake manifold or 3.9L capacity increase). It runs ITB under that Cup manifold. It does have however one of the flatest torque curves Ive ever seen in a 3.6-3.8 flat six. Im thinking something along these lines but with 3.85L capacity for greater torque and a bit more HP plus longevity.
Im starting a Vanuatu registered charity to pay for it!
05-30-2014, 10:47 PM
Rennlist Member
Overall air cooled values in the last 18 months have surprised me. It seems to be consistent with the appreciation across vintages in other marques (if not a tad behind the likes of Ferrari, Aston etc).
Im too young to have had skin in the game last time we had a classic car bubble but global economics I suspect is playing a large part in the recent astronomical prices we have seen for Dinos, 2.7RS, speedsters, 250GTOs, early LP400s etc.
Im quite heavily invested in the markets so I understand the metrics of fixed income yield instruments such as bonds much better than I did 12 years ago. I understand that the rich don't invest for high returns (which almost always means risk)- they invest so their principle is protected (lowest risk possible), the invest to avoid concentration risk and they typically invest initially for an income that will support their outgoings and lifestyle and after that its principle appreciation (at modest cumulative growth). When Bonds and TDs and other instruments show a poor or almost negligible return they may choose to apply some of their equity to non conventional "investments" that have a intrinsic return (i.e. art and cars). If you arent going to make a solid low risk accumulative 5% you may as well enjoy looking at your money and driving it after all.
So, no Ive not made any past predictions on values of 911s, 993s or 964s in the past. I broadly believe the market is "hot" right now and if these were equities Id personally be looking to start taking profits over the next 12-18 months if I were in the position of having a collection of early and rare vintage sports cars. You only read about bubbles even existing in investment AFTER they burst. Its the same with equities and commodities markets. I personally find it ridiculous that an early 911S can be worth $200K for example. Thats outside of the league of 90% of the folks than hand out on the largest enthusiasts board in the world (RL) and thus in my book becomes "speculative" interest not driven by passion but by means. I believe that is dangerous for the loyalists and enthusiasts. But then I didnt think Series 1 E type Jags were worth 120,000 NZD in NZ in the late 80s either (and shortly after they werent - not sure they have ever been since either).
Enjoy the beach Doug. Im looking at ours now but its too cold for a swim!
05-30-2014, 11:00 PM
Rennlist Member
Nothing that stands out.
Overall air cooled values in the last 18 months have surprised me. It seems to be consistent with the appreciation across vintages in other marques (if not a tad behind the likes of Ferrari, Aston etc).
Im too young to have had skin in the game last time we had a classic car bubble but global economics I suspect is playing a large part in the recent astronomical prices we have seen for Dinos, 2.7RS, speedsters, 250GTOs, early LP400s etc.
Im quite heavily invested in the markets so I understand the metrics of fixed income yield instruments such as bonds much better than I did 12 years ago. I understand that the rich don't invest for high returns (which almost always means risk)- they invest so their principle is protected (lowest risk possible), the invest to avoid concentration risk and they typically invest initially for an income that will support their outgoings and lifestyle and after that its principle appreciation (at modest cumulative growth). When Bonds and TDs and other instruments show a poor or almost negligible return they may choose to apply some of their equity to non conventional "investments" that have a intrinsic return (i.e. art and cars). If you arent going to make a solid low risk accumulative 5% you may as well enjoy looking at your money and driving it after all.
So, no Ive not made any past predictions on values of 911s, 993s or 964s in the past. I broadly believe the market is "hot" right now and if these were equities Id personally be looking to start taking profits over the next 12-18 months if I were in the position of having a collection of early and rare vintage sports cars. You only read about bubbles even existing in investment AFTER they burst. Its the same with equities and commodities markets. I personally find it ridiculous that an early 911S can be worth $200K for example. Thats outside of the league of 90% of the folks than hand out on the largest enthusiasts board in the world (RL) and thus in my book becomes "speculative" interest not driven by passion but by means. I believe that is dangerous for the loyalists and enthusiasts. But then I didnt think Series 1 E type Jags were worth 120,000 NZD in NZ in the late 80s either (and shortly after they werent - not sure they have ever been since either).
Enjoy the beach Doug. Im looking at ours now but its too cold for a swim!
Overall air cooled values in the last 18 months have surprised me. It seems to be consistent with the appreciation across vintages in other marques (if not a tad behind the likes of Ferrari, Aston etc).
Im too young to have had skin in the game last time we had a classic car bubble but global economics I suspect is playing a large part in the recent astronomical prices we have seen for Dinos, 2.7RS, speedsters, 250GTOs, early LP400s etc.
Im quite heavily invested in the markets so I understand the metrics of fixed income yield instruments such as bonds much better than I did 12 years ago. I understand that the rich don't invest for high returns (which almost always means risk)- they invest so their principle is protected (lowest risk possible), the invest to avoid concentration risk and they typically invest initially for an income that will support their outgoings and lifestyle and after that its principle appreciation (at modest cumulative growth). When Bonds and TDs and other instruments show a poor or almost negligible return they may choose to apply some of their equity to non conventional "investments" that have a intrinsic return (i.e. art and cars). If you arent going to make a solid low risk accumulative 5% you may as well enjoy looking at your money and driving it after all.
So, no Ive not made any past predictions on values of 911s, 993s or 964s in the past. I broadly believe the market is "hot" right now and if these were equities Id personally be looking to start taking profits over the next 12-18 months if I were in the position of having a collection of early and rare vintage sports cars. You only read about bubbles even existing in investment AFTER they burst. Its the same with equities and commodities markets. I personally find it ridiculous that an early 911S can be worth $200K for example. Thats outside of the league of 90% of the folks than hand out on the largest enthusiasts board in the world (RL) and thus in my book becomes "speculative" interest not driven by passion but by means. I believe that is dangerous for the loyalists and enthusiasts. But then I didnt think Series 1 E type Jags were worth 120,000 NZD in NZ in the late 80s either (and shortly after they werent - not sure they have ever been since either).
Enjoy the beach Doug. Im looking at ours now but its too cold for a swim!
.
05-30-2014, 11:02 PM
Rennlist Member
05-30-2014, 11:13 PM
Rennlist Member
Need to get Helga sorted, then I can sell the 996TT. Wish me luck as I take on the rear struts. Sills are with Kevin getting stone chips painted out of the black portion. A few other small things to do then it's drive for a year or two.
05-30-2014, 11:26 PM
Rennlist Member
Buying a 911S is not a need but a want and requires discretionary income/HNW. Decisions to invest in such asset classes are far more fickle than the need to own or upgrade a property.
Long term values of all classic cars will appreciate. However like any other investor grade asset class there will be bull markets and bear markets.
Its just the way these things work. There are at least two examples in the last 20 years of the classic car market booming and busting and that excludes the current cycle.