Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
10-17-2016, 06:37 AM
Rennlist Member
Remind me to never be tail end charlie again. Ive seen on many runs the tail guy can be forgotten quick time in the heat of the moment driving. If he comes off the road badly hes history! If its a semi regular thing it needs to be a little better thought out. I dont even know if my fellow drivers carry a First Aid kit in their cars. On that point I sold mine with the 993 (didnt think to remove) so will buy another this evening. A first aid course is handy. Ive been thinking of a commercial idea around driving too so started to talk with the organizers of similar events in Europe to better understand how they organise these things. They use Sat phone and epurbs in the mountains as cellular non existent. I did notice that on Alpes De Maritime and infact I recall driving in the Swiss Alpes and loosing GPS for 30s-60s a time (shadow in valleys). Anyway for $450 bucks I think its probably a bit of a no brainer.
10-17-2016, 07:34 AM
BTW guys, just finished watching 'Brock' on 3+1. I have posted here before on how sad and ironic it was that he found his end meeting a tree in the Aussie equivalent of a wet Targa Tour run. We are not short of trees here either. In mountaineering, a successful climb is one you come back from. Sure, let's have safety gear in our cars. But - as some have already alluded - let's have it between our ears too. If it could happen to Brocky, it could happen to any of us...
10-17-2016, 08:03 AM
Rennlist Member
I bought the Porsche first aid kit at the Museum visit and carried it this weekend. Big bandages for motor vehicle accident type injuries. I also have a small first aid book as the Porsche booklet was in German! As I wrote before, traveling in matched buddy pairs is the easiest structure. It works in diving. Keep it simple. No long stages, breaks where everyone stops and keep the speeds appropriate to the conditions
10-17-2016, 03:56 PM
Advanced
Yeah.. This is exactly what I assumed has been happening. Hopefully the turbos are still OK. They seem to be running fine. While it only made 0.4bar, I drove the car pretty softly.. Didn't want to push it with a known issue!
Appreciate the input
Appreciate the input
Chris, under vacuum (no boost at lower revs) the boost hoses would have sucked themselves shut on the pipes so no symptoms. Under boost, they would have been pushing air out, so the car would have run protectively rich if anything. But it pushes the turbos to achieve a target boost thats matched to load, rpm gear etc, so they would have been spinning faster to (partly) compensate. Until they hit that boost target they keep trying harder, and this automatic adaptation is what helps turbos lose less performance than NA cars at altitude. Not sure about the 996T but some cars monitor that situation and cap the overspeeding to a safe value.
Even wounded, the Turbo is quite a car but she will have woken up now.
Even wounded, the Turbo is quite a car but she will have woken up now.
10-17-2016, 07:01 PM
Rennlist Member
Searching for something and the 964th page of this thread came up. Some good memories
10-17-2016, 08:41 PM
Interesting comments re safety etc, after reading Marks Targa post this morning, gear failure is also something very real to consider.
Road driving has freaked me out in the past, I mainly drove the car so being "leaned on" through the corners but not to the point of having no more turn in left if needed.
The past road trip, I had more confidence than last time due to the track driving done now, knowing my limit better.
The car was marvelous, slow in, letting it grip through the corners and applying a squirt of throttle on exit, enjoyed a soft setup, our roads are almost too rough for a stiff car, I guess if you are really pushing then more feedback is needed, however I prefer a bit more comfort, Dougs Boxster being a prime example. Would like to know how Mark sets his car up for targa.
As a road Tyre I love the Toyo T1R, it gave great feedback re grip levels and doesn't surprise you. I've heard complaints about a spongy ride, however if your air cooled suspension is close to stock, much of the feel has already been taken away, not the tyres fault. I will be getting a road set for the SC.
I found myself missing my old 996tt over the weekend, would have been ideal.
Road driving has freaked me out in the past, I mainly drove the car so being "leaned on" through the corners but not to the point of having no more turn in left if needed.
The past road trip, I had more confidence than last time due to the track driving done now, knowing my limit better.
The car was marvelous, slow in, letting it grip through the corners and applying a squirt of throttle on exit, enjoyed a soft setup, our roads are almost too rough for a stiff car, I guess if you are really pushing then more feedback is needed, however I prefer a bit more comfort, Dougs Boxster being a prime example. Would like to know how Mark sets his car up for targa.
As a road Tyre I love the Toyo T1R, it gave great feedback re grip levels and doesn't surprise you. I've heard complaints about a spongy ride, however if your air cooled suspension is close to stock, much of the feel has already been taken away, not the tyres fault. I will be getting a road set for the SC.
I found myself missing my old 996tt over the weekend, would have been ideal.
Last edited by Pel; 10-17-2016 at 11:54 PM.
10-17-2016, 10:00 PM
Rennlist Member
You aren't wrong Pel. No matter how well prepared an older car is, its always a very real potential threat. Heading over the front straight in the 993 at HD at 200kmph+ before braking and turning in for T1 always had me mindful of this. I think ChrisM is the benchmark for this, and was a very lucky chap indeed. I guess PaulM as well of more recent times.
Not to say a new(ish) car cannot suffer a catastrophic mechanical failure leading to a similar outcome.
My wife refuses to ride quickly with me in the car now. She claims she has faith in my driving ability (I dont believe her) but its the things I cant control like possums, people, tractors or foreigners on the wrong side of the road. She has valid points but you cant go through life wondering what around the next corner or else you'd never get in a car in the first place. We are "driver" people after all! The turning point for her was being first to an accident here in late 2013 where a good friend had been riding to work early in the morning doing perhaps 100 kmph on a trial bike and slammed into a Hilux that was turning across the road into a driveway. May have been an issue of the rising sun blinding him. He didnt brake, it was a full acceleration to stop situation. Wrote the Hilux off (v'd the lower chassis rail), helmet ripped off, torn aorta, punctured lung, 27 broken bones, much bone through flesh. She held him keeping him from drifting into unconsciousness and shock and called the Ambo. They gave him 10% survival chance and medicated him out. It too 24 hours before he had his first surgery and they didnt think he would make it. He did, still has some memory loss issues and lives in a world of pain from the injuries (body is a battlefield of scars) but its getting better. Hell never be 100% I suspect. That was it for Jo, book closed, no more fast driving, no more Targa and to be honest shes lost interest in being at the track while Im circulating too....
After that we became regular donators to the private ambo service and Jo made sure we participated in regular accident trearge and resuscitation course (basic first air stuff). Since that day we have FA kits in all houses and cars.
We do everything we can to control the risks when we go for a spirited drive. Most of all we prepare our cars properly and through track work have a far better understanding of how to handle them when things get a bit tricky.
Lat night I bought a couple of First Aid kits of TM. I can pass on the email of the seller if need be - A med student who has his own brand called Sellwood Medical Services. I liked the way they were packaged and thought out, the price was good too. 107 item kit, $45. Glad the subject came up as I had forgotten mine had been sold with the old girl!
As for teh Sat phone I called the NZ agents for Inmarsat and Iridium today and spoke with someone of knowledge there. Iridium is the system they sell mostly, with 66 LOE sats there is less possibility of "shadow" in the valleys. The newer handsets are a bit more pricey but smaller and lighter, about the same size, weight and functions of a pre smart phone cellular handset (think Nokia 2110/232). Ive just received some additional info on the networks from them and their benefits etc for NZ conditions so will continue to read up....
Not to say a new(ish) car cannot suffer a catastrophic mechanical failure leading to a similar outcome.
My wife refuses to ride quickly with me in the car now. She claims she has faith in my driving ability (I dont believe her) but its the things I cant control like possums, people, tractors or foreigners on the wrong side of the road. She has valid points but you cant go through life wondering what around the next corner or else you'd never get in a car in the first place. We are "driver" people after all! The turning point for her was being first to an accident here in late 2013 where a good friend had been riding to work early in the morning doing perhaps 100 kmph on a trial bike and slammed into a Hilux that was turning across the road into a driveway. May have been an issue of the rising sun blinding him. He didnt brake, it was a full acceleration to stop situation. Wrote the Hilux off (v'd the lower chassis rail), helmet ripped off, torn aorta, punctured lung, 27 broken bones, much bone through flesh. She held him keeping him from drifting into unconsciousness and shock and called the Ambo. They gave him 10% survival chance and medicated him out. It too 24 hours before he had his first surgery and they didnt think he would make it. He did, still has some memory loss issues and lives in a world of pain from the injuries (body is a battlefield of scars) but its getting better. Hell never be 100% I suspect. That was it for Jo, book closed, no more fast driving, no more Targa and to be honest shes lost interest in being at the track while Im circulating too....
After that we became regular donators to the private ambo service and Jo made sure we participated in regular accident trearge and resuscitation course (basic first air stuff). Since that day we have FA kits in all houses and cars.
We do everything we can to control the risks when we go for a spirited drive. Most of all we prepare our cars properly and through track work have a far better understanding of how to handle them when things get a bit tricky.
Lat night I bought a couple of First Aid kits of TM. I can pass on the email of the seller if need be - A med student who has his own brand called Sellwood Medical Services. I liked the way they were packaged and thought out, the price was good too. 107 item kit, $45. Glad the subject came up as I had forgotten mine had been sold with the old girl!
As for teh Sat phone I called the NZ agents for Inmarsat and Iridium today and spoke with someone of knowledge there. Iridium is the system they sell mostly, with 66 LOE sats there is less possibility of "shadow" in the valleys. The newer handsets are a bit more pricey but smaller and lighter, about the same size, weight and functions of a pre smart phone cellular handset (think Nokia 2110/232). Ive just received some additional info on the networks from them and their benefits etc for NZ conditions so will continue to read up....
10-17-2016, 10:10 PM
Rennlist Member
A softer set up for fast road work is preferred. A car optomised for the track is not desired. This is why the older GT3s without PASM and modern suspension can be a real handful on fast road drives in NZ. Our B roads are really quite bumpy, lots of off camber corners, plenty of small stone son teh edge of teh road with little run off, the chipseal has worn and rippled in places being shiny underneath so early morning dew and patches of moss under trees can make it all a bit slippery. Not sure how the Targa Comp guys set up their 911s but for the Tour I was advised soft sway bars, less camber, more height and increased the clicks for more compliant shocks (coilovers). Seemed to work well.
An AWD 911T with PASM and some good all weather road road tyres like the new Pilot Sport 4 is probably a great all round car for NZ conditions...
An AWD 911T with PASM and some good all weather road road tyres like the new Pilot Sport 4 is probably a great all round car for NZ conditions...
10-17-2016, 11:00 PM
Interesting comments re safety etc, after reading Marks Targa post this morning, gear failure is also something very real to consider.
Road driving has freaked me out in the past, I mainly drove the car so being "leaned on" through the corners but not to point having no more turn in left if needed.
...
I found myself missing my old 996tt over the weekend, would have been ideal.
Road driving has freaked me out in the past, I mainly drove the car so being "leaned on" through the corners but not to point having no more turn in left if needed.
...
I found myself missing my old 996tt over the weekend, would have been ideal.
Under what conditions was she freaking you out Pel? Got close to it myself once on an over-the-Coromandel early morning Targa stage.
It was a dry morning after heavy overnight rain, and what that meant on a twisty mountain road was the patchiest and most contrasting grip ever. Bit like the skin of a giraffe, with a patchwork quilt of wet and dry patches going in, out and through all the shadowy gully bends and hairpins, with occasional streams of water flowing over the surface to spice it up further. Not big predictable wet and dry patches either, but small ones where you never quite knew what was under each of your tyres at any one moment. Only time I've wished she had better rubber and/or had PSM enabled as her backside jerked about sideways unpredictably, especially under exit power. It was also the only stage where I felt sorry for those behind as they were held up in a better shod modded GTR with all its electronic aids helping it along.
Not a fan of PSM in the dry, and probably not in the wet either (have never run with it on in the wet to compare though) but in those weird mixed surface conditions it would have easily earned its keep and perhaps saved me one or two grey hairs. Unlike the twenty something other stages, including other slick and early ones, I had to back off a bit after some hairy moments exiting slower hairpins early in that one.
@Macca - thanks for sharing that first aid kit here.
In other news, have thrown the old girl a bone to distract her from the Cayenne moving in alongside:
The photo's angle doesn't show them, but there are big downwards tabs holding the battery laterally too. The zip ties were just the tide-me-over solution while I had the holder fabbed up. I'll put some nylock nuts on top before removing those.
10-17-2016, 11:19 PM
Rennlist Member
Nice work on the battery Walt. Good 10kg saving there I suspect!
Just for clarity on those who may get confused. PASM is Porsche Active Suspension Management and PSM is Porsche Stability Management. I advocate the former on the more modern 911 chassis to help choose a less aggressive damper setting for NZ B roads. The latter as Walt eludes is a matter of personal preference and somewhat unrelated...
Just for clarity on those who may get confused. PASM is Porsche Active Suspension Management and PSM is Porsche Stability Management. I advocate the former on the more modern 911 chassis to help choose a less aggressive damper setting for NZ B roads. The latter as Walt eludes is a matter of personal preference and somewhat unrelated...
10-18-2016, 12:05 AM
Yep. Though as you can see from the original metal mounts still being in place too, I'm not yet fanatic enough to chase the last 100th on track.
Yes, only saw your post after placing mine, or else might have made the same distinction.
As some may have surmised from the earlier interior pic, I am considering adding a handbrake to the Cayenne but will have a play with the foot parking brake first to check that it only operates on the rears - ie that the transfer case/centre diff allows the fronts to keep spinning when the rears are braked. The 996 Turbo allows this, but the Cayenne's AWD system is quite different and I suspect that ability may have been lost at some point of the progression to dinky little parking flaps/buttons. It has a multiplate electric clutch between the axles, so here's hoping the parking brake disengages it automatically when on the move.
That said, the Cayenne doesn't need as much encouragement to corner as the very front-engined and inherently understeery allroad used to. Early indications are that an occasional mini scandi flick may suffice, rather than accompanying that with a momentary twitch of handbrake to throw some weight forward for better front turn in grip as on the Audi.
For any who may think me mad - Mazda now provide an automated version of that same corner entry weight transfer twitch built into their 6, albeit via momentary engine torque reduction:
http://www.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/38952/mazda-g-vectoring-control-cornering-without-effort/
I would be lying if I said I wasn't a bit sad to see another driving trick getting rolled into the damn computer though. We've pretty much lost full control of brakes and accelerator, we're losing steering, and who knows what's next. How many more years until a transparent windscreen becomes a high priced premium option?
Just for clarity on those who may get confused. PASM is Porsche Active Suspension Management and PSM is Porsche Stability Management. I advocate the former on the more modern 911 chassis to help choose a less aggressive damper setting for NZ B roads. The latter as Walt eludes is a matter of personal preference and somewhat unrelated...
As some may have surmised from the earlier interior pic, I am considering adding a handbrake to the Cayenne but will have a play with the foot parking brake first to check that it only operates on the rears - ie that the transfer case/centre diff allows the fronts to keep spinning when the rears are braked. The 996 Turbo allows this, but the Cayenne's AWD system is quite different and I suspect that ability may have been lost at some point of the progression to dinky little parking flaps/buttons. It has a multiplate electric clutch between the axles, so here's hoping the parking brake disengages it automatically when on the move.
That said, the Cayenne doesn't need as much encouragement to corner as the very front-engined and inherently understeery allroad used to. Early indications are that an occasional mini scandi flick may suffice, rather than accompanying that with a momentary twitch of handbrake to throw some weight forward for better front turn in grip as on the Audi.
For any who may think me mad - Mazda now provide an automated version of that same corner entry weight transfer twitch built into their 6, albeit via momentary engine torque reduction:
http://www.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/38952/mazda-g-vectoring-control-cornering-without-effort/
I would be lying if I said I wasn't a bit sad to see another driving trick getting rolled into the damn computer though. We've pretty much lost full control of brakes and accelerator, we're losing steering, and who knows what's next. How many more years until a transparent windscreen becomes a high priced premium option?
Last edited by 996tnz; 10-18-2016 at 12:57 AM.
10-18-2016, 12:07 AM
Rennlist Member
And PDAS (Porsche Dynamische Allrad Steurung) is the granddaddy. It's an electronically controlled hydraulic-mechanically activated traction control system fitted to the 964 C4.
10-18-2016, 01:37 AM
The amount of variables compared to driving on track, Macca listed them all off, Possums, other vehicles.
If you have an off, at 100kph with no airbags & cage, on track it's wallet threatining, on road it's life threatening.
The road trip just completed wasn't sketchy, was more lamenting a lack of experience a couple of years ago.
If you have an off, at 100kph with no airbags & cage, on track it's wallet threatining, on road it's life threatening.
The road trip just completed wasn't sketchy, was more lamenting a lack of experience a couple of years ago.
10-18-2016, 03:32 AM
Rennlist Member
I would be lying if I said I wasn't a bit sad to see another driving trick getting rolled into the damn computer though. We've pretty much lost full control of brakes and accelerator, we're losing steering, and who knows what's next. How many more years until a transparent windscreen becomes a high priced premium option?
Last edited by Macca; 10-18-2016 at 03:48 AM.