John McM

We definitely need Steve R along and a spare parts plan, but the key point is pre-tour inspections. None of us want to be stranded on the SI trip. Taking off down to Invercargill with wear items of unknown and/or known poor condition is an own goal. Luckily we have the NI tour to shakedown.

Macca, I've got a few things on your list that need inspection. I'll trawl through the 964 site for the common items I've yet to address. Mind-you, right now I just want my car back.

Macca

Agreed on all points. Cant be long now John and you'll finally be driving her!!!

mjg

If it's anything like last year's PCNZ driver training day, I'd say it's still well worthwhile even if you've had track experience. I'm going to sign up for it.

peterC2S

Go on - why don't you just add planetary gears to that list as well. Just to make us C4 guys even more paranoid!

peterC2S

I hear what Macca is saying but I was viewing it as another opportunity to get to meet some more PCNZ guys and gauge progress from a more technical POV - rather than just hooning around! Think I'll do this one as well (and not just so I can let you talk me into a GT3...)

Macca

Pete. No need. I knew you it was already top of mind for you guys!

John. Im sure others can chime in here but given the next 9 months will bring untold track use to your stead I think you should work on the basis of "history unknown" and systematically work through the list of mission critical first. You will shortly have the engine, oil lines, clutch and planetary gear carrier/pins nailed so that leaves you IMHO with the following-

Brake discs, pads, fluids and lines. Im pretty certain something here will need attention. Watch out for RUF specific parts as these may take extra time to order.

Suspension struts, monoball top mount bearings (if you have monoballs installed).

A arm bushes, sway bar bushes, rear carrier arms and bushes, front tie rods, rear ball joints and covers. Id imagine given age, mileage and singapore humidity at least something here may need replacing.

Other important items to check and many that may have already been replaced or checked during the engine rebuild include-

Coil packs. These are getting old now and failing on our cars
Distributor armature, dissy drive belt
High tension leads (many are having shielding cracking now due to age and moisture)
Spark plugs, oil & filters (will all have been done as part of engine refresh)
ISV (needs a clean at the least at this age)
Wiring harness and sensors (imagine this will have been done as part of engine rebuild)
DME relay (carry a spare)
Wheel bearings. These build up heat and start to play around this age and mileage. Fronts first.
Gear linkages. Plastic ball cups crack and you can find yourself out of gear permanently so definitely worth checking all linkage and grease due to age and mileage.

By no way comprehensive this is a good start list IMHO. With NI & SI Tours plus 6-12 Playdays between now and April 2014 its all about preparation. Given thats the equivalent of perhaps 800 hot laps plus 5000 km touring its the equivalent of preparing for two Targa Tours and as Graeme on here has said you spend 2-3 hours preparation/maintenance for 1 hour driving to ensure reliability when the car is pushed 8/10ths for such lengths...

gt38088

Sh*t that's a long list Macca by the time it gets finished its time to start again at the beginning :-(

Macca

Yeah I know. Most of have done all or some of these items if weve owned our 911s for the last 10 years. Most have done half of these things even for cars they have owned only the last 3-5 years. I guess to put some perspective on this Im now assuming Johns car is a zero history car (i.e. given recent discoveries should assume unknown history). Although this work and these inspections could all be taken at once I suspect they will take place over time. The key is to shake out all the gotchas before a 3-10 day event far from home...

Macca

Graeme. Might add Ive done all these items and as more as part of "preventative maintenance". I might add that outside of racing circles this seems an largely known concept in NZ (to spend money before something fails). I have zero tolerance for the car failing as I fly in, use it and fly out. To fail would not only mean lose of enjoyment at the time but a waste of significant time/flights/costs to get to NZ. I know this is how someone like Sean also views his car. That said you cant anticipate every item in a 20 year old car. I had a air con pump bearing start to fail during the targa and still have a shift linkage issue under load I need to sort out next month. Things like dissys, plugs and injectors were all done prior to 8 hours dyno time (as it turned out - 2 different tuners!) and as you know the dyno will also show up any failings.

I guess preventative maintenance is probably up to 25% more expensive than maintenance at point of (near?) failure as often the items is not completely lifed when you change it. However the increased reliability and peace of mind in the package is well worth the investment given my circumstances at least....

John McM

I bought, as all used car buyers do, a car with a set of partially quantifiable future expenses. A PPI helps quantify those but is limited by the extent of inspection. The purchase price will always be just the entry point.

The speed with which those expenses hit depends partly on luck, partly on planning and partly on the amount and type of use e.g. pootle around the Bays on the weekend at 60km/hr and I could have gone years thinking I had bought a gem. Take it to the track and stress it and I could have a very different thought. Renovate it fully and you bring costs forward, but possibly cost more in the long run.

In hindsight I think I bought an average/slightly above average car in general condition. That said, my car's clutch was almost gone, my oil lines were leaking and I had a loose pin in the planetary gear. Let's say $4,000 in hidden expenses.

All that is now fixed and I have a zero history car in some areas. I'm sure other things will cause me grief, but they should be less costly and more user repairable.

One thing that has changed is that I'll never look at a shiny 964 without wondering what's under the skin. I'd also place a lot of value in a driven car that's been maintained. Dave's car will likely see some issues, as they all do, but he has a more sorted base now than I did at day one. There's a lot of embedded value in my car that's not reflected in the likely sale price ergo I'm not selling in this decade.

Macca

John. I agree with everything you say.

With regards to your comment "the speed with which those expenses hit depends partly on luck and partly on amount and type of use" is the crux of the matter here from my perspective.

I started with a problem free and well known base having owned the car a decade with 100% reliability before I started. However I anticipated Targa, Offshore Tarmac Rally and repeated Track work in the cars future so when I did my 2 year upgrade project I decided to face those expenses head on so they would largely eliminate the "unknown" factors moving forward. Thats an investment in reducing the "luck" factor IMHO.

Once "type of use" has been clearly identified (as it has by most of us in this group) then it has become a constant in the equation. My only regret was not having gone a little bit further in some areas at the time (suspension as an example) which has necessitated double expenses. That's the use factor anticipated.

I need to wrap a caveat over my whole ownership experience and say that moving to LINK has thrown a huge unknown into the equation for the longevity of my engine. A single tank of bad gas could have serious implications. There was alot of work to get this engine running on LINK and far too much time on the dyno which accelerates wear. The engine is also working to the edge of its factory parameters at 7000 rpm redline with 10% more power and the fueling curves are finally balanced between rich and lean.

Put it this way. Ill be very happy indeed if the car makes it through the next 9 months of events (NI Tour, Targa, SI Tour and hopefully a few extra HD days) without letting me down. If the engine gets through all of that then Ill be even happier! If I hadnt tuned it I wouldnt be saying that most likely but Ive never been confident that work was done as well as I would have liked.

I think you are on the right track. Of course us track novices also put undue wear and stress on components by virtue of our lack of experience and skill. A miss shift could ruin you heads. Bad gear changes put stress on synchros, poor brakes could lead with a touch of armaco etc

One other thing to remember is that component failure on the track can cause further damage. Planetry gear set is an example. Worn shocks under heavy breaking is another. Soft brakes due to old fluid and aging lines. Such things can lead to panel damage and a hurt ego.

Doing an HD day once a month is one thing. Plenty of time to have little issues sorted out. Doing 3-4 of these consecutively with 1000-4000km of touring in between is quite different again.

I dont know so much as others so dont listen to me, but we have say 8 regular guys/cars at HD in the group I pay attention to - 964 or older model owners driving medium mileage 20+ year old cars that have had money spent on them - (Jason x 2, yourself, Pete, Paul, Seans car, Steve Rs 964 and Matts old car) and of those 4 have had issues in the last 6-10 months that have put them out of action for 1-6 months. A crash, a blown engine, a planetary gear set failure and your engine (which probably isn't fair as the car hadn't seen any track time yet). Seans car was prepared ground up by Steve and has had a reco'd engine in its no too distant past, Steve Rs car probably sees regular work as he owns a Porsche workshop. In my mind that leaves Petes car and Matts old car. Petes definitely got his money worth but must feel hes on borrowed time (hopefully with new knowledge can address the potential issues before they arrive) and Matts car still seems strong too.

The way I see it over 10 years enjoying these type of pursuits we will all have pretty much spent similar money keeping these cars on the road. In your instance its been upfront, in others its trailing costs or unexpected.

You have 3 months to iron out the wrinkles. A few HD days and maybe one of Rons Sunday drives will help with that. If its the difference however of spending an extra 10k now or suffering the consequences of the unknown then focus on the weakest link parts as mentioned on my previous post (and with help form the 964 board for more specific issues) and deal with it head on so you can enjoy an uninterrupted experience. As you say your not selling any time soon so you have many years to amortization the costs.

P.S. the moment you get those wheels and the ducktail on that car and its running nicely again I guarantee any financial regrets will disappear like ether! Lets face it, this is a relatively cheap hobby for a middle class 6 figure income earner. There are guys I worked with in London spending more than this on hookers and cocaine on an annual basis. I reckon this is a much healthier hobby and almost as exciting LOL!

kiwi 911

Spoken like a wise man......................

John McM

Running total for Rennsport Gruppe windscreen banner

Red font & white background
Dave 2
Peter 2
John 2
Matt 2

White font and red background
Macca 2

Red font and black background
Jamie 2.

Need to get the rest of the team corralled here. No problem if someone isn't keen, but don't want disgruntled punters when they see they've missed out.

kiwi 911

Just talking to Steve, I think he is coming up on Saturday at 3pm to chat about Rennsport Gruppe

cbnz

Don't get too gloomy about your cars before you even start! I did the first SI odyssey with Playday in April 2009, and did the three tracks that were available then, drove from Auckland via a very circuitous route to get to Teretonga where we started off and the car never missed a beat, mind you, it was a 944!