Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
09-22-2015, 09:05 AM
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Macca - are you triggering the ABS in the braking zones? There are different schools of thought on this and I suppose the peculiarities of the 911's weight distribution will have a significant impact. Some hold that you should be braking so late & so hard that you're always activating the ABS & just when it looks like you won't be able to make the apex, get off the brakes & sling it in with you foot mashed to floor (after coming down the required number of gears under brakes) as soon after tha apex as possible. Apex speed of course being King. Others would argue that such aggression does not make for controlled weight transfer & makes it difficult to gauge maximum apex speed. I recall reading Nigel Mansell lamenting that the F1 sequential gearboxes prevented him from loop-changing from say 5th to 2nd while under maximum brakes before slinging it in to the apex. He stated that apex speed was everything because as soon as you 've apexed everyone has their foot mashed so there's nothing more that can be done to ekk out an advantage under acceleration. Only under brakes & speed through the Apex offer significant scope for advantage. A tricky situation in F1 as maximum braking force is available at the start of the braking zone & it decreases as the down force bleeds off with reduced speed. Besides - Mansell was renowned as a driver with a massive ability to outdrive deficiencies in his machine (especially through taking aggressive lines over kerbs!) - which Ferrari noted made him a magnificent race driver but not so useful in testing where he had the talent, courage & aggression to compensate for retrograde set-up changes. Then again - in F1 any driver who is not either flat on the gas or the brakes really needs to justify why he's operating a feathered or partial throttle or weak braking. Then again - they have the metrics to quantify the maximum forces, speeds & accelerations the car can sustain on a given ciruit under given weather/atmoshperic conditions. They can tell a driver if he's only used 93% of the available grip through a corner! Another article captured Walter riding with a Carrera Cup racer & observing that for the 911 it's important not to brake too late as that compromises earlier application power. Mr Rohl pointed out that while impossibly late braking in the 911 may feel faster (and indeed might be useful for gaining track position) it compromised lap time due to having to sort out the weigth transfer later, which translated to later power application out of the corner. These data traces really get you thinking! Tim
In relation to your question I think it depends on the vehicle in question and it's set up. I am using a street tyre not a slick so the question when driving a 911 using the Mansell theory is how much power can one get down leading too and during the Apex. For example my first visit to Manfield was in the 993. It's the only time I have driven the 993 there and it performed well with a 1.20 flat. The car wore sticky Z221 R comps with -3.0/2.5 F/R camber and makes 285 BHP with 260 lbft. If you know the track you know at the end of the straight is a right hander almost 50 degrees with 8 degrees banking. Here in the 993 I was getting into ABS in the last 15m before using the banking to catapult the car around the corner with low throttle application unit the car straightens out at the Apex. It worked well.
With the GT3 I find due to track, chassis and tyre width I can carry a bit more speed through that corner by initial hard braking, a very small amount of ABS, tapering off the brake but earlier tapered throttle application for more mid corner speed and higher lateral G. Essentially the car does not need to slow as much to make the corner and the chassis handles more trail braking. This is one of only two points on the track I would get close to ABS- in the 993 every time for longer in the GT3 less often for shorter. The GT3 seems much harder to break traction under braking even with only -1.5/1.5 f/R camber. It may be partially size of contact patch, some aero or stiffer PASM chassis.
By the time I got a few sessions into Taupo I had run out on the front rotors which masked the ABS somewhat from the driver (I.e rumble under application). I probably should review the data to see if ABS shows as a data point (didn't notice a channel for that) Jamie rode passenger and may be able to remember better than I but I think we only saw ABS occasionally during these session definitely at the end of T1and I believe Walters theory is probably closer to the ideal for the later chassis 911 although the earlier cars enjoy the later and harder approach. Weight may play a contributing factor....in
09-22-2015, 09:54 AM
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It is being replaced with another Pcar.
09-22-2015, 02:25 PM
Drifting
09-22-2015, 04:39 PM
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I'm wondering whether it could be an Orange long hood targa or Macca's 991 GT3?
Last edited by John McM; 09-22-2015 at 05:03 PM.
09-22-2015, 05:20 PM
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^^^, interesting points for discussion. However "smooth" is fast.
"One of the biggest lessons I had in life was Jackie Stewart driving us at Oulton Park. He changed my career.
MH: Really? Was that in a touring car?
JPM: Yeah, a Ford Escort Cosworth. He took six of us - people like Allan McNish, Ralph Firman, Jonny Kane - and we drove the cars around Oulton Park. Jackie went out and was seven tenths quicker than anybody. It was impressive.
So, it's my turn to get in the car with him. After a few laps he says: "OK, let me show you." It feels like he's driving at five miles an hour, then we come into the pits. My dad is there and he says: "That was the fastest lap!" I'm like: "What the f*** are you talking about? He was doing five miles an hour!" It was unbelievable.
Then I have another go. We're going through that double-right hander [Druids] and the back comes out and I'm thinking: 'I'm not crashing with Jackie Stewart next to me!' It was a massive tail-slap and I actually saved it.
Williams test invitations were Montoya's big break
Williams test invitations were Montoya's big break © LAT
I thought I was going to get into so much trouble. But he just said: "Very good car control. Just calm down, do it slower and smoother. You don't want to upset the car." He was so smooth and he really made that point. It was a big wake-up call."
Excerpt from Montoya interview.
Also, whilst together at Ferrari, Prost really dominated Mansell. Jackie Stewart said in an interview that Prost was the only driver who was as smooth as he himself was. Walter Roerhl is also an advocate of smoothest is best in discussing 911.
Clark & Lauda were also not untidy.
Also the "rougher" approach is hard on the car ( & probably on the guy at the wheel!)
"One of the biggest lessons I had in life was Jackie Stewart driving us at Oulton Park. He changed my career.
MH: Really? Was that in a touring car?
JPM: Yeah, a Ford Escort Cosworth. He took six of us - people like Allan McNish, Ralph Firman, Jonny Kane - and we drove the cars around Oulton Park. Jackie went out and was seven tenths quicker than anybody. It was impressive.
So, it's my turn to get in the car with him. After a few laps he says: "OK, let me show you." It feels like he's driving at five miles an hour, then we come into the pits. My dad is there and he says: "That was the fastest lap!" I'm like: "What the f*** are you talking about? He was doing five miles an hour!" It was unbelievable.
Then I have another go. We're going through that double-right hander [Druids] and the back comes out and I'm thinking: 'I'm not crashing with Jackie Stewart next to me!' It was a massive tail-slap and I actually saved it.
Williams test invitations were Montoya's big break
Williams test invitations were Montoya's big break © LAT
I thought I was going to get into so much trouble. But he just said: "Very good car control. Just calm down, do it slower and smoother. You don't want to upset the car." He was so smooth and he really made that point. It was a big wake-up call."
Excerpt from Montoya interview.
Also, whilst together at Ferrari, Prost really dominated Mansell. Jackie Stewart said in an interview that Prost was the only driver who was as smooth as he himself was. Walter Roerhl is also an advocate of smoothest is best in discussing 911.
Clark & Lauda were also not untidy.
Also the "rougher" approach is hard on the car ( & probably on the guy at the wheel!)
09-22-2015, 05:42 PM
Rennlist Member
Dave. I agree and subscribe to this style of driving. If you watch any of my track/road videos on Youtube (993 or GT3) you'll notice there is no drama in the cabin. No "see sawing" the wheel or sudden weight transfer of the car. It all looks rather benign and on the wide angle even the speed doesnt reveal itself as anything remarkable. Im not saying its faster than those with more dramatic styles, but it is the style Ive adopted somehow.
09-22-2015, 06:00 PM
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09-22-2015, 06:21 PM
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Makes a lot of sense. You'll still have the R up your jacksie in the twisties, but you'll enjoy owning a near new Porsche which is a revelation after owning older ones. Good luck with the 993 sale.
09-22-2015, 06:43 PM
Burning Brakes
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Perhaps Paul is selling to buy a Cayman to be done with it once and for all
09-22-2015, 06:59 PM
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This is a big transition from his C3 that I rode in in Dec 2012 that was washed marginally more times than the one in the opening scene of the Big Chill.
09-22-2015, 09:23 PM
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Any Rennlisters from New Zealand?
Originally Posted by 993 Targa
Damn I was just about to mention seeing if the 996 was on the market. Got to get in early on the 911 wife swapping here 