Thanks guys - that kind of confirms what I had thought. Simple supply and demand I guess - there wouldn't be enough demand to keep one of those guys busy here extending their knowledge and development. Fingers crossed I won't 'need' too for a while but I agree that crating an engine isn't actually the big part of expense.

 

Sean brings up a good point. When I went LINK I found the issues with tuning a flat six in NZ. Regardless of LINK G4 or Motec M64 the fact is no one had vast experience in NZ tuning a 3.6 road car on these systems. After many thousands spent we have it pretty good but not perfect. Tuning charges are typically $150 ph + for dyno work and $100 + for road work. To give an example you would spend around 20-30 hours tuning an engine from scratch if you didnt have a pre defined set of maps. Lots of tricks for the unwary such as the fact our manifolds have a resonance flap which needs to open at specific RPM and that as oil cooled engines we run a different temperature range (135 degrees+) and that the resolution of the factory sensors for block temps at idle cold start are not high enough for many aftermarket ECUs. Then you have knock sensors compatibility etc. I pent 100s of hours reading others experiences in the USA and UK, emailing owners and engine builders and talking with Coin Belton, Jeffry in the USA and Steve Weiner. If you crate the engine to someone how has experience with ITBs and using Motec then you benefit form all their intellectual property and the time they have spent close loop tuning to eradicate annoying idle and partial throttle issues on the flat 6.

In the end the laws of economics kick in. Even the Switzerland of the Pacific cant make the numbers work for this type of exercise. As good as Kiwis are at engineering the volume of Porsches that people want to modify to high HP applications each year probably amounts to less than 3!

If I were doing it again I wouldnt. Id never have opened it, waited till the compression was showing signs of ring wear, crated it and sent it to the UK with a fat cheque and a request for 350 bhp. Ive learnt time and time again with these cars, the only way to do it is do it properly. If its a toy for a few years then the budget may not warrant this approach but if its a long time keeper do it right...

 

All this stuff about sending your car to the UK and USA sounds sexy, but you need someone in NZ to install and dyno tune, unless you fly a technician out to NZ. The last 5% is dyno tuning.

Any engine like this is going to need a week of fine tuning and dyno to get the HP claimed.

There is a lot of fine tuning once the engine is installed.

There are lots of primo engine builders here: Jon Warring has built some amazing engines (aka the 993 race car), I think Steve R is well aware of most of the tricks for a 964 engine owning a few of them, it just comes down to budget and bringing in the bolt on bits.

 

Paul. Colin Belton will tune the engine in a mule (his 993RS for example) if you send him your headers and exhaust with the engine. He then will send you back the engine with the Motec box fully mapped. At best youll need two hours on a dyno to tidy up maps for local fuel quality but I doubt even that would be necessary as NZ/UK RON and quality is similar.

You do not need to send the car anywhere.

In the USA Jeffrey and Steve (two different outfits reputedly amongst the best 964 tuners in the US) will do the same with a 964 engine although the fuel MON needs consideration as quality varies from NZ.

Jon Waring built a 993 race engine on Motec but that car never drove well for the street. Building a race car for WOT mapping is not too hard. You go open loop off tables. Building a car that will idle properly, drive around town happily, run with lights and aircon is a different matter. No one in NZ that Im aware of has done this successfully that Im aware of.

Ive done the research and my findings are as stated for a car that also behaves as a road car on cold idle and PT. I also spent over 10k of my own money to learn this stuff and made sure I understood as much as I could about the subject before engaging the "experts". I can now proficiently program in and ot various parameters on LINK with my PC including max engine rpm lock outs at various temps, engagement of various functions etc. Ill bring the PC Friday and you can see the extent of the mapping, there is a USB cable under the passenger seat squab I can port into and bring up live and logged data.

There are certainly plenty of people that can rebuild a 3.6 engine here but as Sean says, show me a NZ flow bench with flat 6 experiences in an engine shop with a laser/digital cam timer and a dyno with knowledge of setting up ITB on Motec or LINK and Ill eat my hat for you.

 

PS. As per the harness I made for my 55 Pin Bosch wiring loom (same as 964, so it snaps onto factory loom like the Motronic ecu), this allows engine to be bolted back up like normal, snap on Motec tuned by UK/US engine builder and find power supply for new MAP sensor (or not with ITB). Not a difficult task as long as Motec is supplied with 55 pin adapter...

Another thing an experienced 3.6 builder can give you is windage tuning for bottom end oil flow improvements as well as useful experience in slotting for GT3 scavenger pump etc to improve high RPM reliability etc. Show me a shop that does that here...

 

PS pictures above from my car...

 

"Coming out"? No, I don't think so

No seriously, unfortunately I'm going away with my (female!) partner for the long weekend. I'd love to be at the track though. Looking forward to reading about the day and hope to see some pics too.

I'm pretty keen to do the BMW driver training the following Saturday. Not sure about the run on the 14th, sounds fun but I don't know if I'll have the time.

 

I'm not sure it's sexy, more of a PITA, but better value for 300hp+ really and the only option for 350hp+ like Frank in the UK did.

I wouldn't let anyone in NZ near my heavily modded Porsche engine without a base map from the US or UK based on the engine spec. I certainly wouldn't be running in a 350hp 3.6 on anything other than a dyno either so you'd need somewhere to start from.

There's some great tuners coming through in NZ, especially the young guys at E&H Motors, but even guys like that would still like a base tune to start from because they don't know the platform. Sure there's still a lot of time to fine tune from someone else's map, especially if you're running pump gas, but at least the cars running.

If only NA motors weren't so damn hard to get HP from, life would be much easier and a whole lot scarier!

mmmmm Turbos.

 

lol!

 

Sorry Michael - unintended inference there - though I could have meant to the air cooled side.....

 

Macca/John/Paul (and anyone else who's signed up for HD tomorrow). Steve's confirmed good to go for a BBQ after. I'll look after burgers, buns & some green stuff. If others can bring refreshments that would be good - we all have to drive so the 2 stroke works well.

Its a bit hit and miss with the kai cart - wasn't there for the last run - so don't rely on it for lunch!

Even if you're not in for the driving anyone is welcome down - come and catch up - the more the merrier.

 

Ha ha, it's all good, just winding you up!

Hope everyone has a fun and trouble-free day tomorrow.

 

John,

Any update on the 964? I assume you are now taking the 996TT? Not sure if you were sober - but happy to run the 964T

On the engine front (having just spent a lot a time thinking about this myself.........), I reckon you have 3 options:

1) Rebuild your existing engine to stock (circa $15K)
2) Rebuild your existing engine and tweak the chip and cam (Circa $20K)
3) Buy a freshly rebuilt 964 engine (if one exists) - circa $15K

I don't think an alternative engine not freshly rebuilt is an option unless it's a half price detail (i.e. $7K), as you are only buying half the engine life and now have a car not matching numbers, with a funny story (i.e. knock $10K off its value).

So options 1 and 2 are the only realistic ones IMHO. Option 2 being the preferred as you want some 'benefit' from all the grief and effort, and if you are in for $15K you may as well be in for $20K.

 

Paul, I enquired about one of the Cabs on Trademe but the figures don't work and the $ spent to date are rag top work not work I would class as value enhancing for me.

So I went to the mechanic this morning and authorized more tear down work. We'll see where it leads. If the wear is isolated to Say tappets on one bank then I'll rebuild to original spec. I may use the time to source some other items and do work. Not a biggie. I now have garage space so no one in the family is complaining.

If you want to drive the Turbo 3.6 down, the offer is there. I doubt I'd take it on the track though as its not prepared for that right now. Text me on 027 578 3278 if interested. 'll use the 996, which had a full service a few months ago.

As for BBQ, I'll source some two stroke.

 

Les-bot Alert!