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We can talk performance on the street, canyons, and track. Which is exactly why I made the chart of engine speed vs gear vs vehicle speed. Let me put this in more simple terms. I'll call the 2.5T 4-cyl = A and the 4.0L 6-cyl = B. Typical street use, even on the more aggressive side, 3k rpms to 4k rpms is common range.
At 3k rpms, engine A = 330tq, B = 260tq. Engine A is faster.
At 4k rpms, A = 350tq, B = 275tq. A is faster.
Let's talk fun tight canyon driving where we will call max speeds are 80mph which tops out 2nd gear.
At 5k rpms, A = 350tq, B = 310tq. A is faster
At 6k rpms, A = 325tq, B = 315tq. A is faster.
At 7k rpms, A = 280tq, B = 290tq. B is faster, finally.
At 7.5k rpms, A = 270tq, B = 280tq. B is faster.
This is where gearing is important. Because when you're in the canyons, you're not going to be sitting above 7k rpms in 2nd the whole time. You'll have to slow down for slower corners which will drop your speeds down to 40-50mph where engine A has much more torque. So in the real world in lower speed scenarios, engine A is going to be faster. And this translates into shorter road courses, say anything around the 1.5 mile length. Again, this is where gearing is important. With B, shifting at redline from 3rd into 4th drops you to 6500rpms which is where B starts to gain the torque advantage over A and that's at almost 120mph. Where do you see these speeds? Past 1/4 mile, so talking half mile events, autobahn, and big road courses like COTA, VIR, etc. On those tracks where you're dropping down into 2nd and 3rd gears, A will pull away a bit until 6.5krpms, B will claw back some up until 7.5.k-8k rpms. That's the scenario on the 2-3 shift because shifting at redline on B from 2nd into 3rd drops you down to 5750rpms where B is behind on torque compared to A. Of course, A has to shift 500rpm sooner which mitigates the deficit B has a little bit.
As for the Golf engine, it's an inline-4. So that's a different engine architecture than the flat-4 in the 718. You would have been closer to say there was a Subaru engine in the 718. And if you knew a little bit more, you would have distinguished between the WRX and STI engines. If you really wanted to talk down in the 4-cyl turbo, you would have mentioned slower throttle response and potential heat soak issues with sustained hard driving.
Your metrics for 'performance' are subjective 'feel' based, which is fine, if those are the things that make the car more fun to drive for you. But that's different than quantifiable performance numbers as it pertains to going faster. The PDK is the better performance transmission, but for many, it's not as much fun.
And, to loop this all back to the EV discussion, 'feel' is why most of us think gas cars are more fun to drive than EVs. So is there a market for an EV 718? Sure! It's still certainly going to be more fun as a DD than a Tesla Model 3. If I need to make a quick hop to the store or the gym, give me the 718 EV over any other EV out there right now. Why not drive the gas 718? It's plain bad for the engine to do short drives where the oil never gets up to full temp. And other reasons like minimizing gas use and pollution, saving some money, you can romp on the EV right away without having to wait for a warm-up (assuming it hasn't been cold soaking outside in freezing weather, but at that point, gas car will take forever to warm up too). Save the gas 718 for actual fun driving instead of everyday chores.
To be honest you seem dead set on convincing me of ..something. like I'm not denying anything you're saying. My only point of view was that better is subjective which I'm sure everyone can agree on. Not all of us want low down torque from turbos. Not all of us want to hit peak power sooner. If that were the case I'd just stick with my G82 M4 Competition. That thing is faster than either of the cars we've talked about. But I'm not. I'm trading it in for a BGTS because the driving experience is better. The NA engine for me is better. It responds better to me and builds power better to me. I don't really know why you keep bringing up all these stats. At the end of the day I will still choose the 4.0 flat 6 over the 2.5 turbo 4 because it's better...for me.
Kind of an embarrassment to the once great Weissach badge. They didn’t even give that badge to the Turbo GT Cayenne. In the near past it was reserved for the closest thing to a motorsports version of a street car that you could buy. Not a 5,000lb two seat sedan. No one is tracking this.
How many Ring laps could this Taycan do before recharge and new tires? 1 maybe 2?
And who is the buyer for that Taycan GT with no backseats for nearly $300k?
With the hundreds of unsold Taycans currently on dealer lots, I think this car will be used as a chip to bargain with prospective GT3RS buyers - “take one of these Taycan’s off our hands and we will give you a GT3RS allocation”. That could even be the new VIP program, buy one of these boat anchors and we’ll give you anything you want for 15 years.
They may invent a new measurement for unsold inventory for these cars, the thickness of dust on the paint.
Kind of an embarrassment to the once great Weissach badge. They didn’t even give that badge to the Turbo GT Cayenne. In the near past it was reserved for the closest thing to a motorsports version of a street car that you could buy. Not a 5,000lb two seat sedan. No one is tracking this.
How many Ring laps could this Taycan do before recharge and new tires? 1 maybe 2?
And who is the buyer for that Taycan GT with no backseats for nearly $300k?
With the hundreds of unsold Taycans currently on dealer lots, I think this car will be used as a chip to bargain with prospective GT3RS buyers - “take one of these Taycan’s off our hands and we will give you a GT3RS allocation”. That could even be the new VIP program, buy one of these boat anchors and we’ll give you anything you want for 15 years.
They may invent a new measurement for unsold inventory for these cars, the thickness of dust on the paint.
I think you are spot on with this. I also think this was done to promote hype to the new 718 EV. Because it shows what kinda performance Porsche can do with an EV and so maybe they are hoping people will see this and then want whatever new GT4 EV comes. But yeah they do gloss over a lot of important details like you mentioned. Top Gear has a video about it where they take it around Laguna Seca in an attempt to beat the current EV record there which was set by Tesla in the Model S. They beat the record by 5 seconds and did so on the second run....and then not once did the guys at Top Gear ask the important questions. So that kinda tells me that while you CAN take it out to the track and get good times...it probably wouldnt last a full session.
I think you are spot on with this. I also think this was done to promote hype to the new 718 EV. Because it shows what kinda performance Porsche can do with an EV and so maybe they are hoping people will see this and then want whatever new GT4 EV comes. But yeah they do gloss over a lot of important details like you mentioned. Top Gear has a video about it where they take it around Laguna Seca in an attempt to beat the current EV record there which was set by Tesla in the Model S. They beat the record by 5 seconds and did so on the second run....and then not once did the guys at Top Gear ask the important questions. So that kinda tells me that while you CAN take it out to the track and get good times...it probably wouldnt last a full session.
We own both Taycan 4S Sport and a 718 GT4. I know the Taycan is depreciating like heck now but we love it more everytime we drive it. The Porsche EV was pretty well done and we are always the the first to fully charge at the high power stations on road trips in about 20-25 minute and the other EV's only charging at about half the rate. But my wife and I love driving the Taycan as our every day driver. The car itself is heavy, but it truly feels very 911'ish feel driven spiritedly around the mountains. The steering input and power feel very similar to the 991.1 Trubo S that I owned as the Turbo S is pretty heavy car in the corners as well. We did try tracking it. Got -> 2 1/2 20 minute track session. So not a full track day out of it. So the other elephant in the room, what track is going to install charging station to support a track car EV. Here's a fun photo of my wife tracking the Taycan with the instructor. No this is not photo shopped.
We own both Taycan 4S Sport and a 718 GT4. I know the Taycan is depreciating like heck now but we love it more everytime we drive it. The Porsche EV was pretty well done and we are always the the first to fully charge at the high power stations on road trips in about 20-25 minute and the other EV's only charging at about half the rate. But my wife and I love driving the Taycan as our every day driver. The car itself is heavy, but it truly feels very 911'ish feel driven spiritedly around the mountains. The steering input and power feel very similar to the 991.1 Trubo S that I owned as the Turbo S is pretty heavy car in the corners as well. We did try tracking it. Got -> 2 1/2 20 minute track session. So not a full track day out of it. So the other elephant in the room, what track is going to install charging station to support a track car EV.
Thermal Club in CA already has charging stations trackside.
Isnt that the super exclusive track for rich people?
Nope! Just plain old stupid IMHO. Talk about being in the absolutely f*ing middle of nowhere desert adjacent to the lovely smelling Salton Sea. Money that'd be better spent attending Track Days at a "real" race track. They do have an abundance of empty lots still available.
FWIW, BMW has their "Experience Center" there.
No real surprises, but good to hear some specifics...
High-performance, track-focused GT versions of the new electric Porsche 718 Boxster and Cayman sports cars are likely to follow the standard versions due next year.
"The base model will be introduced at first, but it will need some time for a more high-performance version of the 983 [the new 718's model code] to come, and we will be on the same timeline."
Asked by Drive if the high-performance version would be an S, or a GT version, Mr Förster said: "GT would be better."
It would be the first electric vehicle developed by the Porsche Motorsport division responsible for the 911 GT3 and GT2 RS, and the 718 GT models – the Cayman GT4 and GT4 RS, as well as the Boxster-based Spyder and Spyder RS.
Porsche this week unveiled the Taycan Turbo GT, but despite its badge, it was developed by the regular Porsche Taycan team – rather than the Motorsport arm, which works side-by-side with engineers creating Porsche race cars.
No real surprises, but good to hear some specifics...
High-performance, track-focused GT versions of the new electric Porsche 718 Boxster and Cayman sports cars are likely to follow the standard versions due next year.
"The base model will be introduced at first, but it will need some time for a more high-performance version of the 983 [the new 718's model code] to come, and we will be on the same timeline."
Asked by Drive if the high-performance version would be an S, or a GT version, Mr Förster said: "GT would be better."
It would be the first electric vehicle developed by the Porsche Motorsport division responsible for the 911 GT3 and GT2 RS, and the 718 GT models – the Cayman GT4 and GT4 RS, as well as the Boxster-based Spyder and Spyder RS.
Porsche this week unveiled the Taycan Turbo GT, but despite its badge, it was developed by the regular Porsche Taycan team – rather than the Motorsport arm, which works side-by-side with engineers creating Porsche race cars.
I'm sure there is zero "dealer enthusiasm" ....I'd be worried too if my cash cow aka service dept. was about to lose tons of business due to the lack of service EV's need.
say good bye to the $700 oil changes
wonder if they'll make up for it with $40k battery pack replacements
03-11-2024, 05:35 AM
