Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
10-27-2017, 06:01 PM
#4337
Rennlist Member
At the end of the day, it simply comes down to it not being what I bought and the compensation for what they are telling me that they are doing doesn't balance out for me.
As far as that equation, some have quoted the whole payout, but it should only be half. I got my first half ($3500 in my case) completely untied to the fix, so it is only $3500 they are offering me for the changes that the fix makes.
As far as that equation, some have quoted the whole payout, but it should only be half. I got my first half ($3500 in my case) completely untied to the fix, so it is only $3500 they are offering me for the changes that the fix makes.
As for the half payment being the value of the fix, I guess you can look at it that way, but in reality, the full value is the price VW pays for you not getting what you paid for. The catch of holding some back is to get you to comply, not as the value of the fix changes. Semantics, perhaps, but that's the way I see it.
You might be right and the result is that it's simply not going to downshift as soon as it does now since that would raise the RPMs and thus the emissions.
Personally I use the engine braking all the time as I know where/when to lift off the gas to attain a desired speed with minimal (if any) braking being applied. There is one stop sign I go through every day in a 35mph zone. I know exactly where to lift so that I don't have to touch my brake until the last 10'. Just a lovely machine all around...
Personally I use the engine braking all the time as I know where/when to lift off the gas to attain a desired speed with minimal (if any) braking being applied. There is one stop sign I go through every day in a 35mph zone. I know exactly where to lift so that I don't have to touch my brake until the last 10'. Just a lovely machine all around...
Oh I missed this part.
First of all, all VW had to do was please CARB/EPA with the changes with some very loose limits on consumer impact (e.g. 10% power/mpg IIRC). CARB/EPA certainly don't give a damn about drivability and performance, so expecting them to be looking out for us in that regard is just silly.
Secondly, the used market is hot right now because there is a limited supply and few of us want to let them go right now. If the fix turns out to neuter them A) they won't be as desirable and B) there will be more on the market as people try to dump them.
First of all, all VW had to do was please CARB/EPA with the changes with some very loose limits on consumer impact (e.g. 10% power/mpg IIRC). CARB/EPA certainly don't give a damn about drivability and performance, so expecting them to be looking out for us in that regard is just silly.
Secondly, the used market is hot right now because there is a limited supply and few of us want to let them go right now. If the fix turns out to neuter them A) they won't be as desirable and B) there will be more on the market as people try to dump them.
10-27-2017, 06:02 PM
#4338
Banned
Booch,
I'm sure you're a good guy, but you're basing a factor of a half payment (varies) on a subpar vehicle fix that is based on data you nor I know of yet. To error as most suspect with the EPA numbers on the build sheet, you're talking more than a 1mpg figure (most assuredly more than what you're getting now). In addition, you feel that Uncle Sam has your back on your vehicle? I'm not sure where you find that credible other than the money that's coming your way.......
Regarding the fix and inventory, I can guarantee that the vehicles not fixed will be commanding a premium far larger than the max $5,500 grand half payment. History has proven such with vehicles grandfathered over ANY such legality issue.
I'm sure you're a good guy, but you're basing a factor of a half payment (varies) on a subpar vehicle fix that is based on data you nor I know of yet. To error as most suspect with the EPA numbers on the build sheet, you're talking more than a 1mpg figure (most assuredly more than what you're getting now). In addition, you feel that Uncle Sam has your back on your vehicle? I'm not sure where you find that credible other than the money that's coming your way.......
Regarding the fix and inventory, I can guarantee that the vehicles not fixed will be commanding a premium far larger than the max $5,500 grand half payment. History has proven such with vehicles grandfathered over ANY such legality issue.
10-27-2017, 07:30 PM
#4339
As for the half payment being the value of the fix, I guess you can look at it that way, but in reality, the full value is the price VW pays for you not getting what you paid for. The catch of holding some back is to get you to comply, not as the value of the fix changes. Semantics, perhaps, but that's the way I see it.
You'll just have to relearn the downshift characteristics. Shouldn't be too hard; you don't appear to be a dummy.
It's 5%HP/5% Torque and up to 3mpg loss.
10-27-2017, 08:07 PM
#4340
Rennlist Member
Got second Bosch payment today in mail.
10-27-2017, 08:26 PM
#4341
Banned
So you guys feel the "Engine Brake" characteristic is solely due to the engine going to a lower gear? I always thought it to be a modified version of a "Jake Brake" where the engine does the work and not a gear input.
I'm doubtful the language "Engine Brake" is referred to as a gear input into a lower range gear.....
I'm doubtful the language "Engine Brake" is referred to as a gear input into a lower range gear.....
10-27-2017, 09:14 PM
#4342
Rennlist Member
So you guys feel the "Engine Brake" characteristic is solely due to the engine going to a lower gear? I always thought it to be a modified version of a "Jake Brake" where the engine does the work and not a gear input.
I'm doubtful the language "Engine Brake" is referred to as a gear input into a lower range gear.....
I'm doubtful the language "Engine Brake" is referred to as a gear input into a lower range gear.....
I'm skeptical this will be a big deal at all, and whatever difference arises from the fix is only theoretical at this point. But it's absolutely plausible that some people might be able to tell a difference pre and post fix. It's even possible that some people might be bothered by the change. What is certain is that none of us know what that impact will be and how impactful it will end up being. We certainly don't know enough to put a price tag on the change.
10-27-2017, 09:42 PM
#4343
Burning Brakes
.
10-27-2017, 09:57 PM
#4344
Banned
Engine braking in a Cayenne diesel is definitely nothing like an actual Jake brake (which employs pressure release valves). It's just very effective engine compression braking. All compression braking (petrol or Diesel engines) is influenced by engine RPM. The higher your RPM the more effective compression braking is. Any change to shift points is going to influence the effectiveness of compression braking just as a byproduct of the altered RPM. If the new transmission behavior avoids a downshift during deceleration that would improve economy and make compression braking less effective. The fact that the Diesel engine is relatively low-revving generally means that there's not a lot of room for change from this. It's not like the difference between a GT3's off-throttle response at 8000rpm compared to 4000rpm. What's the redline on these things? 5300 in the red? It's not exactly an S2000.
I'm skeptical this will be a big deal at all, and whatever difference arises from the fix is only theoretical at this point. But it's absolutely plausible that some people might be able to tell a difference pre and post fix. It's even possible that some people might be bothered by the change. What is certain is that none of us know what that impact will be and how impactful it will end up being. We certainly don't know enough to put a price tag on the change.
I'm skeptical this will be a big deal at all, and whatever difference arises from the fix is only theoretical at this point. But it's absolutely plausible that some people might be able to tell a difference pre and post fix. It's even possible that some people might be bothered by the change. What is certain is that none of us know what that impact will be and how impactful it will end up being. We certainly don't know enough to put a price tag on the change.
10-27-2017, 10:01 PM
#4346
Now I'm super curious
10-27-2017, 11:34 PM
#4347
Rennlist Member
Yes, the changes are the rub, aren't they.
My wife and I drive our CD year round in New England, and have since 1/1/13 when I picked it up from the dealer with 7 miles on it. Snow, rain, sun, towing my race car, hauling kids... you name it, the CD has seen it all for 111k miles and counting. FWIW I don't see it as being any better or worse in snow then my Cayenne GTS, so I can't say if the downhill braking does much. The GTS has much better brakes in general, but that doesn't matter so much in the snow. Hill descent control is the bomb, but they didn't say that was going away.
I'm not saying people can't be miffed, I'm just calling out the wailing and gnashing of teeth, for something, which, in the grand scheme of things, is not terrible. It's not like we got killed by an airbag, or cancer from coal dust in the HVAC system.
Yes, this is a great space for all of us to commiserate how we got bent over by VW, but I feel like we got the common courtesy of a reach around while VW was giving it to us, and that isn't so bad at the end of the day.
In other words, there are more important things to get worked up over, like why does the 911 get all the cool new models, and the Cayennes get the short end of the stick? That's something I can get behind harrumph-ing about
My wife and I drive our CD year round in New England, and have since 1/1/13 when I picked it up from the dealer with 7 miles on it. Snow, rain, sun, towing my race car, hauling kids... you name it, the CD has seen it all for 111k miles and counting. FWIW I don't see it as being any better or worse in snow then my Cayenne GTS, so I can't say if the downhill braking does much. The GTS has much better brakes in general, but that doesn't matter so much in the snow. Hill descent control is the bomb, but they didn't say that was going away.
I'm not saying people can't be miffed, I'm just calling out the wailing and gnashing of teeth, for something, which, in the grand scheme of things, is not terrible. It's not like we got killed by an airbag, or cancer from coal dust in the HVAC system.
Yes, this is a great space for all of us to commiserate how we got bent over by VW, but I feel like we got the common courtesy of a reach around while VW was giving it to us, and that isn't so bad at the end of the day.
In other words, there are more important things to get worked up over, like why does the 911 get all the cool new models, and the Cayennes get the short end of the stick? That's something I can get behind harrumph-ing about
10-27-2017, 11:48 PM
#4348
Three Wheelin'
I registered for half the money. I may never get the fix unless I move to a state that requires it. Then I will trade. Or go for the buyback, if any.
Where is the fault in this strategy?
Where is the fault in this strategy?
10-28-2017, 02:00 AM
#4349
Rennlist Member
There is no buyback.
The fault? Leaving 5k on the table.
The fault? Leaving 5k on the table.
10-28-2017, 01:08 PM
#4350
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Engine braking in a Cayenne diesel is definitely nothing like an actual Jake brake (which employs pressure release valves). It's just very effective engine compression braking. All compression braking (petrol or Diesel engines) is influenced by engine RPM. The higher your RPM the more effective compression braking is. Any change to shift points is going to influence the effectiveness of compression braking just as a byproduct of the altered RPM. If the new transmission behavior avoids a downshift during deceleration that would improve economy and make compression braking less effective. The fact that the Diesel engine is relatively low-revving generally means that there's not a lot of room for change from this. It's not like the difference between a GT3's off-throttle response at 8000rpm compared to 4000rpm. What's the redline on these things? 5300 in the red? It's not exactly an S2000.
I'm skeptical this will be a big deal at all, and whatever difference arises from the fix is only theoretical at this point. But it's absolutely plausible that some people might be able to tell a difference pre and post fix. It's even possible that some people might be bothered by the change. What is certain is that none of us know what that impact will be and how impactful it will end up being. We certainly don't know enough to put a price tag on the change.
I'm skeptical this will be a big deal at all, and whatever difference arises from the fix is only theoretical at this point. But it's absolutely plausible that some people might be able to tell a difference pre and post fix. It's even possible that some people might be bothered by the change. What is certain is that none of us know what that impact will be and how impactful it will end up being. We certainly don't know enough to put a price tag on the change.
I understand the nuances of an engine braking via compression. My understanding is normal braking has little in economy or fuel effectiveness. After all, the fuel is cut out on deceleration. Having no fuel is equal to no emission. I must be missing something if that’s not the case here with the Auto Tranny.
I don't know. Obviously compression braking seems plausible and nothing on the motor jumps out at me as a JB, but paying more attention tonight it definitely feels like it is "braking" before it starts downshifting (that is after lifting off the gas and not applying brakes).
Now I'm super curious
Now I'm super curious
Now, I'm not a powertrain engineer, but you have to start thinking about how our relatively complicated emissions system works. We have a cat as well as a diesel particulate filter and urea injection. And while it's true that with the throttle closed and using heavy engine braking will keep the engine spinning without fuel use, increased RPM due to downshifting will affect things like total air volume pumped through the engine as well as exhaust temperature, which will affect cat temp and DPF temp. If I had to guess, I bet that the drop in temps due to off throttle operation is undeserisble to the cat and the DPF (after all, manufacturers are always trying to get that cat heated as quickly as possible, witness the cat being integrated into the exhaust manifold in many new vehicles) and would reduce the effectiveness of the cat for sure, and potentially the DPF. Purely guessing on my part, but not without some science behind it. Please, if someone knows more about this, please weigh in by all means.
Also, as I posted above, I believe the change in engine braking is solely related to hills, and the car's downshifting to brake itself, not under normal operation. I've noticed doing the long downhill in the Rockies that the car will auto downshift to as low as 6th even with the cruise disengaged as we head down long passes. I have NEVER experienced the car downshifting to create engine braking in flat Texas.