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Personally, I would not use those or any Turbo blankets for that matter…
I am curious as to why you think that - there is a lot of data to support the management of thermal loads in this manner; exhaust velocity is increased, and heat soak is reduced. We have developed some IP based on these applications as well, and have a bunch of data that also supports this practice.
In insulating the exhaust turbine, and thusly maintaining high exhaust velocity, spool time is reduced, and the exhaust turbine operates in a more efficient manner; on and off throttle transitions are more responsive, and at nominal load (cruise) efficiency is realized by observed lower fuel consumption. As I am not planning on going to the track (well maybe once or twice), and 90% of my driving is in a nominal state, I am a big fan of efficiency.
This was my compromise as I didn't want to take apart the turbos to coat them because of all the work that went into setting them up!
I am curious as to why you think that - there is a lot of data to support the management of thermal loads in this manner; exhaust velocity is increased, and heat soak is reduced. We have developed some IP based on these applications as well, and have a bunch of data that also supports this practice.
In insulating the exhaust turbine, and thusly maintaining high exhaust velocity, spool time is reduced, and the exhaust turbine operates in a more efficient manner; on and off throttle transitions are more responsive, and at nominal load (cruise) efficiency is realized by observed lower fuel consumption. As I am not planning on going to the track (well maybe once or twice), and 90% of my driving is in a nominal state, I am a big fan of efficiency.
This was my compromise as I didn't want to take apart the turbos to coat them because of all the work that went into setting them up!
This is something that I have been going back and forth with. I ran a blanket on my Audi previously and had good results, albeit I was unable to feel the benefit, it helped significantly at reducing engine bay temps. On the 911, I am concerned with them catching and holding moisture and adding to potential rust issues. Even though I only drive it when the weather is nice, they can still get wet while washing.
I am curious as to why you think that - there is a lot of data to support the management of thermal loads in this manner; exhaust velocity is increased, and heat soak is reduced. We have developed some IP based on these applications as well, and have a bunch of data that also supports this practice.
In insulating the exhaust turbine, and thusly maintaining high exhaust velocity, spool time is reduced, and the exhaust turbine operates in a more efficient manner; on and off throttle transitions are more responsive, and at nominal load (cruise) efficiency is realized by observed lower fuel consumption. As I am not planning on going to the track (well maybe once or twice), and 90% of my driving is in a nominal state, I am a big fan of efficiency.
This was my compromise as I didn't want to take apart the turbos to coat them because of all the work that went into setting them up!
I have heard the same well. The hotter you can keep the exhaust flow the better.
This is something that I have been going back and forth with. I ran a blanket on my Audi previously and had good results, albeit I was unable to feel the benefit, it helped significantly at reducing engine bay temps. On the 911, I am concerned with them catching and holding moisture and adding to potential rust issues. Even though I only drive it when the weather is nice, they can still get wet while washing.
They dry particularly quickly when the car is running; before we started testing on ceramic coatings, I was using DEI wraps - every time I washed the car (R), I simply ran it for a few minutes and everything dried out.
I have heard the same well. The hotter you can keep the exhaust flow the better.
I have used this pic before, and I was really only trying to capture the odometer, but here is my F450 running at 70mph - in this configuration, it weighs almost 12k lbs, 37" wheels, prior to putting in my built motor - coatings on the exhaust manifolds, turbos, downpipe. Best mileage I ever saw before this was 13mpg.
I am curious as to why you think that - there is a lot of data to support the management of thermal loads in this manner; exhaust velocity is increased, and heat soak is reduced. We have developed some IP based on these applications as well, and have a bunch of data that also supports this practice.
In insulating the exhaust turbine, and thusly maintaining high exhaust velocity, spool time is reduced, and the exhaust turbine operates in a more efficient manner; on and off throttle transitions are more responsive, and at nominal load (cruise) efficiency is realized by observed lower fuel consumption. As I am not planning on going to the track (well maybe once or twice), and 90% of my driving is in a nominal state, I am a big fan of efficiency.
This was my compromise as I didn't want to take apart the turbos to coat them because of all the work that went into setting them up!
Personally, and I preface this with saying that on a track used car, the last thing I want is to bottle in heat on an object that is glowing red hot already. I want temps to be under control to help with long term longevity of the turbocharger bearing cartridge. With extremely hot exhaust gasses moving though a heat soaked turbocharger at a ridiculously high speed already, do you think a turbocharger blanket will make any appreciable/noticeable difference in performance? In other words, do you think the lack of a blanket will allow the gasses to cool even a fraction of a degree in the course of traveling at several hundred miles per hour though the length of a few inches of the turbocharger hot section? In "under hood" applications, the turbo blankets can be beneficial in preventing heat soak of everything around it but that is not the case with the location of your turbochargers.
On a street car putting around town at partial throttle, maybe, must maybe bottling up heat in the hot section may serve a tiny benefit in spool but the negatives of the filth and moisture that will accumulate in and around the blankets and turbocharger are simply not worth it in my opinion, especially if the car is driven in all weather. If your exhaust nuts rust solid over time, what do you think will happen to a wrapped turbocharger over time? If the car is driven hard, the additional thermal stresses are simply not worth it. If you normally give your car a cool down for a few minutes after driving it hard (which are highly recommend), are you going to extend that cool down by a few more minutes with the blankets? Again, there are simply too many negatives outweighing the minuscule positives in my opinion. If you feel the benefits are worth it, by all means do it and datalog it with or without the blanket to see if you can identify any performance increase. I doubt you would be able to feel any. Just my $0.02.
If still in doubt, call Tial and see what they tell you. Their tech guys are very good.
Last edited by powdrhound; 09-30-2021 at 01:37 PM.
Personally, and I preface this with saying that on a track used car, the last thing I want is to bottle in heat on an object that is glowing red hot already. I want temps to be under control to help with long term longevity of the turbocharger bearing cartridge. With extremely hot exhaust gasses moving though a heat soaked turbocharger at a ridiculously high speed already, do you think a turbocharger blanket will make any appreciable/noticeable difference in performance? In other words, do you think the lack of a blanket will allow the gasses to cool even a fraction of a degree in the course of traveling at several hundred miles per hour though the length of a few inches of the turbocharger hot section?
On a street car putting around town at partial throttle, maybe, must maybe bottling up heat in the hot section may serve a tiny benefit in spool but the negatives of the filth and moisture that will accumulate in and around the blankets and turbocharger are simply not worth it in my opinion, especially if the car is driven in all weather. If your exhaust nuts rust solid over time, what do you think will happen to a wrapped turbocharger over time? If the car is driven hard, the additional thermal stresses are simply not worth it. If you normally give your car a cool down for a few minutes after driving it (which are highly recommend), are you going to extend that cool down by a few more minutes with the blankets? Again, there are simply too many negatives outweighing the minuscule positives. If you feel the benefits are worth it, by all means do it and datalog it with or without the blanket to see if you can identify any performance increase.
I hear what you are saying, however, I prefer to think of it as 'harnessing' energy that would other wise be lost.
Allow me to paraphrase Amine Ouahidi:There are several substantial benefits of using a turbo blanket. Here are just a few:
First, a turbo blanket protects components within your engine bay. The turbo blanket isolates the heat produced by your turbocharger, and prevents that heat from damaging, or even igniting, components surrounding the turbocharger within your engine compartment, such as plastic and rubber hoses and electrical wiring, as well as painted surfaces, such as the engine bay and the surface of the hood. Also, it prevents areas of localized high temperature from damaging the engine itself. For example, a common cause of head gasket failure in turbocharged vehicles is localized heating of a portion of the engine. The heat differential between the portion of the engine near the turbocharger and the rest of the engine can cause warping of the head, and thus, head gasket failure. This has been a known cause of head gasket failure in both OEM and aftermarket turbocharged vehicles.
Second, a turbo blanket improves the performance of your turbocharger by keeping "the hot side hot." In keeping the exhaust gases within the turbocharger hot, turbocharger efficiency is improved. As you may know, the hotter a gas is, the more expansive it is. Within a contained system of a specified size, the more expansive a gas is, the greater the pressure derived and thus, the greater the flow of gas to escape the containment. With this increased pressure and flow rate for a given engine RPM, the acceleration of the turbocharger's impeller is increased as compared to the same turbocharger with the engine at the same RPM but with cooler exhaust gases. This equates to faster spool up of the turbocharger, as well as greater attainable levels of boost. What a driver will experience with a turbo blanket is greater turbocharger responsiveness. The faster spool up of the turbocharger means less turbo lag and a more linear power curve.
Third, a turbo blanket improves the performance of your turbocharger by keeping "the cool side cool." As you may know, it is very important to keep engine intake air cool. This is why intercoolers are often utilized with turbochargers. Similar to above, the cooler a gas is (such as intake air), the more dense it is. The more dense the intake air, the more oxygen it contains per unit volume. The more oxygen reaches the engine, the more power can be obtained. In keeping the heat of the exhaust gases contained within the hot side of the turbocharger and away from the cool side of the turbocharger and the intake path, more oxygen per unit volume reaches the engine, and thus, more power.
The above was reported in 2018 and effectively corresponds with what we found both in the lab, and in real world applications, for both terrestrial and marine based internal combustion applications, that we defined some 20 years prior.
I would agree with you that, in a 20 minute track session with those highly efficient ICs you run, the improvements for you may be marginal. However, when you scale that time section up to 3 - 4 hours at a time (typically what I like to do on a run, or if I am hauling a truck/trailer assembly), the improvements are much most prevalent and are reflected in EGTs, oil temps, IAT, load, and of course, mileage.
Conversely, at the power level you run, you produce a great deal more heat than I would - you note that the turbine housings 'glowing red hot', so this would suggest that there would be benefit to you to blanket/coat the turbine housing for no other reason than its proximity to the compressor housing, which I suspect is aluminum, and will gradually absorb the energy being emitted by the glowing red turbine housing. This heat soak to the compressor is then only managed by the ICs prior to entering the engine. As the turbos I received from you are also water cooled, this aids in providing a 'barrier' between the hot and cold side that would most certainly benefit from some kind of insulation.
There are a couple of videos here that can do a much better explanation of what was found during testing than I can, without having to reveal who our clients are:
Ideally, I would have coated everything; the headers are, my ICs are, and my new Kline will be, but it seemed counter productive to take apart the turbos to do this as you and your team spent time setting them up correctly. Why mess with perfection...?
And I have a goal - I would like to see 30mpg at cruise, 65-75mph. I think this can be done with the highly efficient turbos you ave provided to me, and with some of Sam's magic tuning.
Of my vehicles in the stable, 8 of them have various ceramic applications, ranging from full on everything, including internals, journals, con rods, rings, pistons, all plumbing and turbo(s) - (F450, Sti, Type R), to moderate management of thermal loads (Suburban, 996 turbo, CBR1100, M5CP, Excursion). All of them have shown significant gains in efficiency when being driven in a cruise manner, with the Type-R showing the best overall improved mileage at 50.9 MPG. Now to be fair, the R has a taller 5th and a huge amount of engine/head work done to it, but still, when I got it the best I could see was about 34mpg.
I most certainly get that this is not for everyone, and that I am most certainly an anomaly with vehicles - I have a very hard time leaving them alone (I soooooooo want to tear into the 991, but I am restraining myself at great personal conflict), but the 996 is aiding at keeping my feelings for the 991 in check. It is not something that would be say fitted to a vehicles engine unless you had the whole thing apart for some other reason (Read: when Andrew blows something up, he uses that as justification to go and fiddle, mod, and coat), however, we have shown to our clients that the technology of managing thermal loads is not only effective, it is scalable - meaning that the more you do, the more efficient any given engine will run.
09-26-2021, 04:41 AM
