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So, the sending unit fixed your issue ? you never updated the thread
I remember your car for sale, cool, clean build.
I don't want or mean to derail the thread, I was just interested in GC's thoughts, and let others know that some M96s work fine. I had a lucky data point M96 engine, I guess. If I was still racing that car, I'd likely order this UIDS to be on the safe side, and support these smart inventors!
Jason, thanks for digging up the old thread. Brings back memories of what we wrestled with back in the day when we were all flying blind.
Garret, after reading the thread I am completely in awe that you hadn't experienced any problems during DE and especially during club racing with running the Oem aos, no deep sump and 2 Qts low in oil.
The thread is a screaming endorsement for the UIDS.
I put in 14 years of DE with my 2002 996 starting in 2004. In 2006 my aos failed and by that time, the standard was to use the Motorsports Aos. So I did. About the same time, my Porsche Indy shop (Midwest Eurosport) which actively supported DE and PCA Club racing, was looking for solutions to oil starvation and oil pressure instability for the 996 and were in contact with the Grand Am series Porsche 996 teams to understand how they solved for the issues since they ran our engines, not the mezger. It was at that time that my shop fabricated a 2qt Deep sump using the X51 baffle for me and other guys running 996s way before they were commercially available thru today's suppliers. This certainly helped to mitigate the oil starvation and oil pressure instability enough to keep my engine running strong.
While I never ran analytics to measure and map my oil pressure rev by rev, I new that my oil pressure was moving around with a quick glance from time to time at the gauge. In particular, the carousel at Road America which I could sneak a glance.
I am looking to go back out on the track after a 4 year break. But not until I can make sure that the oil pressure instability and oil starvation is solved completely. Jason's work was instrumental in quantifying the issues, and Skip and George's work helped to design and manufacture the solution.
These engines are a he'll of a lot more durable than the fear mongering may suggest if you properly service your engine and perform the proper preventative medicine. However, these issues are real and do occur. It's good to have a viable solution that will once and for all address the issues that we have struggled with over the past 20 years.
I would not say that "some m96 m97 engines were fine", I would say that the owners have not actually recorded the oil pressure when the G-Force is really high ,or they or their car is not capable or driven to a high enough G-Force to show the issue.
This issue has been going on since the m96 m97 engines were built. (20 years)
What we do know is some casr can live a long time even with oil pressure drops that are severe ( See Jason's great thread " oil pressure stability"). His car has survived even though the oil pressure drops are real and recorded. But we know that drops in oil pressure or big gulps of air are NOT good..Lose of oil pressure and air in the oil system can only cause problems and heat. The good lubrication is essential to a long life and cooler engine.
With the Integrated Dry Sump being designed so short fore and aft, and so wide left and right, no amount of baffling will solve the issue. Baffleing ,no matter how well it is designed ,can only do so much and what it actually does is delay or block movement of the oil .Neither of which is the perfect solution. and can be detrimental at times or be beneficial for a period of time only (seconds) ...What's needed is a radical design change.
The UIDS --Ultimate Integrated Dry Sump with it's Twin Tunnel Ports IS that radical design change .. George and I have worked on this design since October 2020....It's been Alfa and Beta tested and will soon be available to anyone...Please be Patent..
Last edited by Porschetech3; 01-06-2022 at 01:31 AM.
Regular capacity pan, and original AOS. Shucks, for most of the years (8 or so) I ran Mobil 0w-40.
Mine is all stock as well, and I just pushed it extremely hard at Autoclub Speedway (a big high speed oval).
I'm down to buy this as a preventative measure, but I was really hoping for a succinct reason. My crazy opinion, if tracking these cars at high G's was a risk, it'd be talked about as much as the IMS.
Does anyone know how many 996's on track have completely original engines & AOS's? I'd bet 99%+.
Here is my screaming endorcement as this was my engine at watkins. I would deff get the uids but i fixed my problem with a mezger. More details in my "another one bites the dust" thread.
Mine is all stock as well, and I just pushed it extremely hard at Autoclub Speedway (a big high speed oval).
I'm down to buy this as a preventative measure, but I was really hoping for a succinct reason. My crazy opinion, if tracking these cars at high G's was a risk, it'd be talked about as much as the IMS.
Does anyone know how many 996's on track have completely original engines & AOS's? I'd bet 99%+.
Wish I had stats on this but don't. Just first hand experience being on the track for 14 years with the PCA as a driver and driving instructor, providing soft data on what everybody was doing and issues they are experiencing.
First of all, very few 996 owners track their car. If they do, it's only for a couple of outings then they are done. A very small % continue on and become diehard DE guys and a smaller number of these guys become club racers. As you can see, it's a very small subset of overall ownership.
Second, everyone and I mean everyone is slow when they first start tracking their car. Driving around town and on the highway does nothing to improve your driving skills and track times. Seat time on the track is the only way to get faster. However, everyone will progress in mastering the skills and speed at a different pace.
What this means is that the faster you are, the more G's you will experience, the more G's, the more risk of oil starvation and oil pressure instability; and therefore, the more you need to do to your engine to mitigate this risk. Sure it costs money, but I would rather incur the cost of installing preventative tools like the UAOS with drainback and a UIDS to mitigate the risk than have to pay 35k for an engine rebuild. Same can be said with the IMSB.
The UIDS mitigates the risk of oil starvation and oil pressure instability by making sure that there is an ample supply of oil sitting under your pick-up tube at all times, eliminating the risk of no oil being there and the resulting consequences of oil starvation, oil pressure drops, air intake and failure.
My engine is in great shape today because I used every preventative tool available to me at the time to prolong engine life. Motorsports AOS, 2qt Deep sump, IMS Retro, and constant oil changes.
I am now moving to the next phase of replacing parts with better designed parts so I can get back out on the track, as well as I want to make sure that these parts can be used with an engine rebuild so it's not wasted money. Yes, someday in the next few years I will have my engine rebuilt. But I want to do everything I can to control when.
My next steps.
1. I will be using the UAOS with drainback instead of the Porsche Motorsports AOS so I can run even more oil without the fear of the AOS failing and facilitating engine failure.
2. Use the UIDS instead of the X51 baffled pan to solve for oil starvation and oil pressure instability.
3. Use the LN Oil Cooling system that is in development to provide more oil cooling. Depending on its ability to cool the oil will determine if I run a sump extension or not for more oil volume and therefor more oil cooling. It will also determine if I need to add a 3rd radiator.
Life is a decision tree based on your objectives and variables around you. When possible, prevent a catastrophe.
Mine is all stock as well, and I just pushed it extremely hard at Autoclub Speedway (a big high speed oval).
I'm down to buy this as a preventative measure, but I was really hoping for a succinct reason. My crazy opinion, if tracking these cars at high G's was a risk, it'd be talked about as much as the IMS.
Does anyone know how many 996's on track have completely original engines & AOS's? I'd bet 99%+.
I personally don't know anybody who has been around the M96 for some time who has not talked about oil starvation in high G-force situations. This problem has been going on for two decades. The 10 year old thread Zbomb posted that Garrett started 10 years ago is just one example. This forum is full of threads like that one. Just do a little search and you can find all the conversation you want on the topic, but very few conclusions.
From your comments I assume you are fairly new to the 996 platform.
I highly doubt there are any 996 on the track with the original AOS on the car unless they were Garage Queens who just got out of the garage.
The UIDS is the best Sump available and has all the advantages of a Dry Sump, without the disadvantages of the Dry Sump.
This is what Porsche used to develop the replacement of the M96/M97 IDS in 2009 , Not only did they redesign the IDS and removed the IMS, but they redesigned the entire engine...(Yes it still has the IDS.)
I would add that not only does this topic take up a lot of RL thread space, it's also the most complex topic for understanding and solving. Unfortunately, most will glaze over the topic after the first few lines of a thread, and move onto aero threads or interior picture threads. Nothing wrong with that, but unless you understand the 996 engine, and ways to keep it successfully running, you will have the prettiest paperweight sitting in your driveway.
I would like to add this is not exclusive to the M96/M97. Oil starvation at high G loads is real for all wet sump engines. Most people won't ever experience it as they aren't driving hard enough. I trashed my VW engine over the summer because of this issue, although it took me 80 track days and moving to R-comp tires to get to the point that I was loading the G's long enough. My new VW engine is using a trap door oil pan and a windage tray to attempt to mitigate oil starvation around corners and I may add an accusump too. Track focused cars like the Shelby Gt350R have this problem - I was going to buy a GT350R until the oil pressure threads on their forums convinced me to buy another 996 Turbo! BMW used a two-pickup oil pump in the S54 engines similar in concept to the UIDS to mitigate this issue.
Mine is all stock as well, and I just pushed it extremely hard at Autoclub Speedway (a big high speed oval).
I'm down to buy this as a preventative measure, but I was really hoping for a succinct reason. My crazy opinion, if tracking these cars at high G's was a risk, it'd be talked about as much as the IMS.
Does anyone know how many 996's on track have completely original engines & AOS's? I'd bet 99%+.
I find on high speed tracks with more sweepers the M96 is more or less fine although I've seen some pressure drops. It's shorter, tight tracks where you really start losing pressure and overwhelming the AOS. If the UAOS was readily available I would have swapped it a while back. Even with a brand new porsche AOS my car will smoke a bit after a full track day on a short, tight course where the oil sloshes around all day. I'll just splurge on a UIDS and UAOS together when it's available at this point.
I would add that not only does this topic take up a lot of RL thread space, it's also the most complex topic for understanding and solving. Unfortunately, most will glaze over the topic after the first few lines of a thread, and move onto aero threads or interior picture threads. Nothing wrong with that, but unless you understand the 996 engine, and ways to keep it successfully running, you will have the prettiest paperweight sitting in your driveway.
Very true . That's exactly what I do with a topic I don't like or understand. I'll read a little bit of it and skip the rest. I usually don't comment on it. But everyone has an opinion and are entitled to it, but like my avitar says, everyone is a Mechanic, until the real Mechanic shows up..
It is a very complex topic, thats why Porsche got it wrong to begin with and it took 20 years to find a solution.
Fortunately hindsight is 20/20 and gives us a better look at the problem than what Porsche had 20 years ago. They found improvements in so many places it made more since for them to design a new engine architect..
I would like to add this is not exclusive to the M96/M97. Oil starvation at high G loads is real for all wet sump engines. Most people won't ever experience it as they aren't driving hard enough. I trashed my VW engine over the summer because of this issue, although it took me 80 track days and moving to R-comp tires to get to the point that I was loading the G's long enough. My new VW engine is using a trap door oil pan and a windage tray to attempt to mitigate oil starvation around corners and I may add an accusump too. Track focused cars like the Shelby Gt350R have this problem - I was going to buy a GT350R until the oil pressure threads on their forums convinced me to buy another 996 Turbo! BMW used a two-pickup oil pump in the S54 engines similar in concept to the UIDS to mitigate this issue.
Originally Posted by triggz82
I find on high speed tracks with more sweepers the M96 is more or less fine although I've seen some pressure drops. It's shorter, tight tracks where you really start losing pressure and overwhelming the AOS. If the UAOS was readily available I would have swapped it a while back. Even with a brand new porsche AOS my car will smoke a bit after a full track day on a short, tight course where the oil sloshes around all day. I'll just splurge on a UIDS and UAOS together when it's available at this point.
I'm glad there is quite a few people here who understand the complex Dynamics of this topic and can help others to understand.. !!!!!
Progress on the Twin Tunnel Port- UIDS never sleeps . With 8700 lines of CNC computer code taught to Machine to produce the Sump . 19 different tool changes takes place during the process. The UIDS on Sally is no longer the only one in existence !!! Please be patient .........
01-05-2022, 11:48 PM
