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Read what I wrote again: sum of their parts. Even though I can make the argument that getting into a 911 that has rear seats vs one that doesn't or one that doesn't have a sunroof vs one that does, does change how the car presents itself, you're right that no one would be able to tell the difference in how it drives with just one offset option. But, compare a complete stripper to a completely loaded car with everything but the sink thrown in and you get two very different cars, both in terms of how they drive and how they feel even just by getting in the cabin. I'm throwing rounded numbers from recollection here but, RAS is just 25lbs and rear seats are just 25lbs (I don't know where you got 18 from), and FAL is just another 15 or so lbs, and PDK is just another 80lbs... keep adding and suddenly you have a car that weighs 3,400-3,500lbs. Conversely, take a 3,241lb stripper, remove 50-100-150lbs and get a 3,100-3,200lb car. Those two cars, especially PDK vs manual and RAS vs non-RAS are very different cars. That's why, for me at least, every option matters.
Understood, and we are in general agreement.
Where we defer is in the absolutely minor options - rear seats vs non rear seats, extended range tank vs regular, etc.
There are options that change the feel and character of a 911, whether through hardware, weight, or software (RAS, FAL, Steering assist, etc). Then there are the “insignificant” options, where if someone selects a couple they really don’t make a difference. We would be better served putting racing rubber on the tires than foregoing an extended range tank, or paying for a carbon fiber roof etc.
My point is to be careful that you do not chase an absurdity in the pursuit of passion. The car is lightweight, and well tuned - 10-30lbs deviation won’t mean absolutely anything over a lifetime of enjoyment.
2k cars is not peanuts. IIRC, that's how many 991.2 Ts were made. Also how many 7.2 GT3s were made. It's not 250 units like the 997 SC or even 1,250 like the 992 SC. There are only about 400-500 people in the VIP program. These cars will be obtainable. With some RS and Dakars being sold at MSRP, I don't think ADMs will be that high and can see some of them moving at MSRP, especially ask liquidity in the market continues to dry up.
I like your optimism. My bright side is perhaps it shakes loose some 991.2 GT3T and I can finally get one.
2k cars is not peanuts. IIRC, that's how many 991.2 Ts were made. Also how many 7.2 GT3s were made. It's not 250 units like the 997 SC or even 1,250 like the 992 SC. There are only about 400-500 people in the VIP program. These cars will be obtainable. With some RS and Dakars being sold at MSRP, I don't think ADMs will be that high and can see some of them moving at MSRP, especially ask liquidity in the market continues to dry up.
Limiting the number from the beginning feels like the problem... just do a run like the T and shut it down when enough have sold. IMO limiting the number from the start creates the hype that causes dealerships to add big markups and drive these cars into the wrong hands...
I’m with you on some things, including the RAS feel vs non RAS, but if I somehow closed off the back or camouflaged the roof and you drove two cars with identical specs, but one with rear seats and one without, or one with sunroof and one without…
You wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. That’s just an absurdity upon absurdity.
The 992 Carrera T weights 3,254 lbs, with the rear seats weighing 18lbs. That’s half of one percent difference, we are in princess and the pea territory.
Where we are in agreement is on options/bolt ons that change feel, responsiveness, steering, or add significant bulk. A 1% overall weight difference between two cars (32.5 lbs, so about the difference of rear seats and sunroof) means nothing, you’d be almost better off losing some weight(10-30lbs), not eating that day (6lbs), and driving naked (3lbs) to achieve the same “results”.
That is all rear seats add, 18 lbs? I was unaware! Total 21.5 with belts. Glad to know as my current order has them spec’ed.
Last edited by RatherJaded; 08-02-2023 at 10:59 AM.
@reloader-1 we don't defer. It's why I skipped the carbon roof. Some things make sense, some don't and we all have different ideas of what makes sense and what doesn't. Agree that 10-30lbs doesn't make a difference but 100-200lbs does and there is no one thing that you can delete to lose that amount. It's lost in 20-40lb increments.
@tourenwagen@TUD yes, each model is different but they are all in the 25lb range including seatbelts and the removal of the metal mounting points.
@tourenwagen agree with your comment on the limited run effects but I see them as secondary. The primary thing is that they drive sales for Porsche and continue building mystique on the brand. As a business, I find Porsche to be absolutely brilliant. That doesn't mean there are no adverse effects to their MO.
@reloader-1 we don't defer. It's why I skipped the carbon roof. Some things make sense, some don't and we all have different ideas of what makes sense and what doesn't. Agree that 10-30lbs doesn't make a difference but 100-200lbs does and there is no one thing that you can delete to lose that amount. It's lost in 20-40lb increments.
Perhaps it’s the way we approach things? I start from the base, and every option is considered in isolation. I don’t seek to remove, but not to add in the first place.
With that, for example, my only additions (which are actually rear seat and sunroof! ) make sense in the context of my driving. This is my daily driver, and as a single dad you better believe I need a place for my young child. I also live in one of the best weather/sunniest places on this planet, so a sunroof adds enjoyment well in excess of the 25-30lbs it entails.
Of course, I traded in my 991.1 with 106k miles / 170k km on it, so I think I get a bit of value out of my vehicles.
Thank you for the reminder @Vernin. You can click the link to the sheet and update it yourself. In fact, you won me to the punch. I'm reminding everyone to update at the beginning of every month, and today is the day.
For those who have not added themselves to the list, click here.
That is all rear seats add, 18 lbs? I was unaware! Total 21.5 with belts. Glad to know as my current order has them spec’ed.
This is easy to offset. Replace the monster stock muffler with a quality light str8 pipe or titanium exhaust. About equal weight offset. And as bonus gain about 20HPs.
Oh, not to mention another bonus of being able to hear the exhaust with an upgraded audio blasting!
I watched the TG video clip and I see it is a love child of an early S and a T. Very cool combination, but frankly it could be a Carrera T with an S (450hp) motor.
I think my only real disappointment re. the ST is that grill badge. It's kind of lame that Porsche only offers that to people buying top-class cars, while all of us buying any 911 in 2023 should be afforded the same opportunity to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the model. The T is my first new 911, my 5th Porsche, and it's the 60th, I would love to own and run that badge on my car. I'll stop whining now.
Does 18lbs include the seatbelts?
EDIT: you ninja edited me So 21.5 in total.
Does that include rear side airbags and equipment? I am assuming those rear airbags are deleted with no rear seats. Can't imagine those are more than 10 pounds or so though.
The absolute lightest T spec - carbon roof, carbon buckets, lightest wheels, no added weight options, would be around 3200 lbs curb weight? Maybe a little less. That is pretty light overall considering the size and packaging of a 992.
I think my only real disappointment re. the ST is that grill badge. It's kind of lame that Porsche only offers that to people buying top-class cars, while all of us buying any 911 in 2023 should be afforded the same opportunity to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the model. The T is my first new 911, my 5th Porsche, and it's the 60th, I would love to own and run that badge on my car. I'll stop whining now.
I thought the same… I want the 60th badge on my 992 T. We have the correct vintage cars!
08-02-2023, 10:34 AM
) make sense in the context of my driving. This is my daily driver, and as a single dad you better believe I need a place for my young child. I also live in one of the best weather/sunniest places on this planet, so a sunroof adds enjoyment well in excess of the 25-30lbs it entails.
